Hi folks!
This is my first post in the SOS forums and knew this would be the place to go for some advice!
I have been presented with an opportunity to record a brass band ensemble in the coming weeks. I'm not 100% sure of the size of the band but I'm just wondering what the best mic'ing technique one would employ in order to capture the best sound. I usually record rock, pop, indie etc bands so jumped at the chance to do something a little bit different.
I was thinking trying out Blumlein with two figure of eights with maybe a couple of flanking mics to pick up more of the room sound (they will be recording in a hall).
I would very much appreciate any advice or experience that other SOS forum users may have!
Many thanks!
Adam.
Recording a Brass Band Ensemble?
Recording a Brass Band Ensemble?
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- RevolutionRecordings
- Posts: 2 Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:00 am
Re: Recording a Brass Band Ensemble?
I'd start with a cardioid pair in ORTF format with extra mics as needed for percussion, etc. If the band is competent, the normal semi-circular format of brass bands lends itself well to fairly minimal mic techniques, so you might find a pair of spaced omnis or even a jecklin disc setup wold work well. This is definitely a situation where you will want to move the main pair up and down and forward and backward to make sure you get the optimum balance of instruments and a good blend of direct and room sound.
If it's a less good band, you'll need to make sure you get any weaker instruments that the main pair is missing - there's a huge difference in volume between a rabbit player and a higher-level 'big-hitter'. Sometimes that's good, as it can help the solo/accompaniment balance. Of course, if it's the wrong way round, you need more spot mics. For solo pieces I prefer to have the soloist(s) standing at the front for recording - others record them in place but either add mics or rely on strength of tone to make the solo stand out. Occasionally you get players who can play anything where they normally sit but go to pieces if they have to stand in front of the band.
You'll want to mic the kit if there is one, nothing glamorous but kick plus overhead pair would get you the presence so it's not lost at the back with the timps and glock. Alternatively, you can physically put the kit in the middle of the band for numbers where it's prominent - a lot of light orchestras do this exactly because a kit at the back of a large band doesn't sound anything like as forward as we're all used to from recordings.
Recording companies who cover lots of grades of bands usually go for a more distant blend of the whole band for beginners and end up with a much more close-up, multi-miked sound for the top bands where each player is worth listening to. You'll need to assess this - do some tests and discuss the results with the band's conductor. There may be band members who can offer useful opinions, too, but defer to the conductor (every band player's an expert but sometimes it's hard to say in what field).
By the way, the standard brass band line-up is 24 blowers and 3 knockers, which is from competition requirements. The lower you go through the sections, the more likely it is that there will be fewer players, or even some sections with lots of extra players, possibly both at the same time. Higher section bands are more rigorous here, and of course if they don't compete, they could have anything, though they'll usually stick fairly closely to the standard line-up as the music's all written for that.
Hope that's helpful - every situation's a on-off but that should get you started.
If it's a less good band, you'll need to make sure you get any weaker instruments that the main pair is missing - there's a huge difference in volume between a rabbit player and a higher-level 'big-hitter'. Sometimes that's good, as it can help the solo/accompaniment balance. Of course, if it's the wrong way round, you need more spot mics. For solo pieces I prefer to have the soloist(s) standing at the front for recording - others record them in place but either add mics or rely on strength of tone to make the solo stand out. Occasionally you get players who can play anything where they normally sit but go to pieces if they have to stand in front of the band.
You'll want to mic the kit if there is one, nothing glamorous but kick plus overhead pair would get you the presence so it's not lost at the back with the timps and glock. Alternatively, you can physically put the kit in the middle of the band for numbers where it's prominent - a lot of light orchestras do this exactly because a kit at the back of a large band doesn't sound anything like as forward as we're all used to from recordings.
Recording companies who cover lots of grades of bands usually go for a more distant blend of the whole band for beginners and end up with a much more close-up, multi-miked sound for the top bands where each player is worth listening to. You'll need to assess this - do some tests and discuss the results with the band's conductor. There may be band members who can offer useful opinions, too, but defer to the conductor (every band player's an expert but sometimes it's hard to say in what field).
By the way, the standard brass band line-up is 24 blowers and 3 knockers, which is from competition requirements. The lower you go through the sections, the more likely it is that there will be fewer players, or even some sections with lots of extra players, possibly both at the same time. Higher section bands are more rigorous here, and of course if they don't compete, they could have anything, though they'll usually stick fairly closely to the standard line-up as the music's all written for that.
Hope that's helpful - every situation's a on-off but that should get you started.
Re: Recording a Brass Band Ensemble?
As always, there are countless ways to approach this, and you'll really have to decide on the day once you get to hear the band and the room they're playing in.
You don't say if your fig-8s are ribbons, but ribbons do often sound very good on brass instruments -- they don't suffer the edginess that capacitor mics can sometimes have, especially with instruments that generate a lot of HF harmonics, like brass!
However, a Blumlein array of fig-8s will mean having to place the mics a fair way back to get a decent stereo image, and with the rear pickup you'll inevitably get a lot of room sound in the mix. That might be fine if it's a dead-ish room, or it might provide an unacceptable perspective. The only way to know is to try it and listen...
The suggestion of an ORTF arrangement or a near-spaced omni arrangement like the Jecklin disc is a common approach. It gets the mics closer to the band while retaining a decent stereo image, but sounds more balanced and natural than a straight XY pair of cardioids.
And I'd also second the idea of being prepared to provide some spot mic cover for the drum kit and/or percussion as they tend to lose clarity and focus.
If you can get into the hall beforehand and, preferably, hear a rehersal there, you'll have a much better idea of the appropriate way to go. I'd plan to have a couple of options up your sleeve such as, crossed fig-8s for a distant placement, some other array much closer if the hall proves too lively for fig-8s, some spot mics for anything percussive, and maybe some outriggers just in case to cover anything that needs a little gentle reinforcement.
Get the stereo array sound as good as you possibly can first, then add closer mics to help fill in the gaps. Spend time getting the right mics in the right places because you can't fix bad miking in the mix!
hugh
You don't say if your fig-8s are ribbons, but ribbons do often sound very good on brass instruments -- they don't suffer the edginess that capacitor mics can sometimes have, especially with instruments that generate a lot of HF harmonics, like brass!
However, a Blumlein array of fig-8s will mean having to place the mics a fair way back to get a decent stereo image, and with the rear pickup you'll inevitably get a lot of room sound in the mix. That might be fine if it's a dead-ish room, or it might provide an unacceptable perspective. The only way to know is to try it and listen...
The suggestion of an ORTF arrangement or a near-spaced omni arrangement like the Jecklin disc is a common approach. It gets the mics closer to the band while retaining a decent stereo image, but sounds more balanced and natural than a straight XY pair of cardioids.
And I'd also second the idea of being prepared to provide some spot mic cover for the drum kit and/or percussion as they tend to lose clarity and focus.
If you can get into the hall beforehand and, preferably, hear a rehersal there, you'll have a much better idea of the appropriate way to go. I'd plan to have a couple of options up your sleeve such as, crossed fig-8s for a distant placement, some other array much closer if the hall proves too lively for fig-8s, some spot mics for anything percussive, and maybe some outriggers just in case to cover anything that needs a little gentle reinforcement.
Get the stereo array sound as good as you possibly can first, then add closer mics to help fill in the gaps. Spend time getting the right mics in the right places because you can't fix bad miking in the mix!
hugh
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- Hugh Robjohns
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(But generally posting my own personal views and not necessarily those of SOS, the company or the magazine!)
In my world, things get less strange when I read the manual...
Re: Recording a Brass Band Ensemble?
A friend of mine is a very reputable brass instrument repairer and also does a lot of guest conducting for brass bands. From our conversations it's clear that the conductor will have a very good idea of the strengths and weaknesses of a band and will know the music very well too. So definitely talk to the conductor beforehand, he will almost certainly want to run the band through some sections as a warm up anyway, and if he is pre-warned he could add a few sections that will help you get a good balance too. Then you can let him have a listen and fine tune mic placement if required.
Andy
Andy
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- Tomás Mulcahy
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Re: Recording a Brass Band Ensemble?
If you have an opportunity to hear them play in the recording venue before the session, take it. Even hearing them play elsewhere can provide valuable information that might avoid nasty surprises on the day.
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- andy cross
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Re: Recording a Brass Band Ensemble?
Some great advice already to which perhaps I can add a little reinforcement / perspective?
As Tacitus has said, no two 'opportunities' with Brass Bands are (usually) the same. The standard of the Bands can vary dramatically, the range of music will be different, the room or hall that they choose can present its own set of challenges. It's really impossible to say upfront the 'best' way to approach anything, I'm afraid. Recording Acid Brass with the Fairey Band in the Bandroom at Salford Uni required a totally different approach to recording Emley Brass Band in their local High School, for example. The differences in approach were dictated by all the above - the quality of the playing, the repertoire, the acoustics and the balance required on the end product.
As suggested, have a talk with the Band. You need an idea of what exactly it is they're expecting - ask them to provide an audio reference so you know how they're hoping to sound. Be aware, though, that most Bands will provide you with a sample of a recording that was made by a band of the highest quality....there's sometimes an amount of 're-education' required about the amount of work you can do in the editing stage.....the bottom line is that if the band isn't Black Dyke they won't sound like them....even though sometimes they expect it.
In general, bands that are of a lesser standard (and I mean that with no disrespect) benefit from micing that is more sympathetic (so usually more distant)....as it can go some way to masking performance errors. Sometimes even the best producer in the World couldn't make a band actually able to 'play' some of the things they choose to record. Having too many spots can draw attention to any such deficiencies. Similarly, with top class bands you can often afford to be more analytical with the balance....there was an example several years ago where the Eikanger-Bjørsvik Musikklag Brass Band from Norway were recorded close miced with the balance being made entirely in post at the discretion of the producer...personally I prefer a performance to be captured rather than created, but there you go.
Do involve the MD and possibly a ~limited~ number of the Band members in the balance check. However, remember that sometimes too many opinions will be detrimental. One CD I released had as part of the approval 'committee' the 2nd horn player. His comment was that the band wasn't balanced as he couldn't hear the 1st horn and 4th man down loud enough....he was expecting it to sound as it did when he was sat in a rehearsal!
Scoping out the hall in advance is a good plan. You may find that you're limited space wise - either in terms of actually getting the Band in the room (in my experience, bands rarely select venues of an appropriate size as it's the last thing they want to spend any of the budget on....or they don't include it at all!) or in terms of where you can put stands, or there may be structural issues (rain on plastic ceilings or single glazed pains?) or noise from outside such as kids football matches, or the caretakers have taken the opportunity to call in the tree surgeons just outside the hall....it all adds up into an interesting experience
I love brass bands, they're great
Have fun.
As Tacitus has said, no two 'opportunities' with Brass Bands are (usually) the same. The standard of the Bands can vary dramatically, the range of music will be different, the room or hall that they choose can present its own set of challenges. It's really impossible to say upfront the 'best' way to approach anything, I'm afraid. Recording Acid Brass with the Fairey Band in the Bandroom at Salford Uni required a totally different approach to recording Emley Brass Band in their local High School, for example. The differences in approach were dictated by all the above - the quality of the playing, the repertoire, the acoustics and the balance required on the end product.
As suggested, have a talk with the Band. You need an idea of what exactly it is they're expecting - ask them to provide an audio reference so you know how they're hoping to sound. Be aware, though, that most Bands will provide you with a sample of a recording that was made by a band of the highest quality....there's sometimes an amount of 're-education' required about the amount of work you can do in the editing stage.....the bottom line is that if the band isn't Black Dyke they won't sound like them....even though sometimes they expect it.
In general, bands that are of a lesser standard (and I mean that with no disrespect) benefit from micing that is more sympathetic (so usually more distant)....as it can go some way to masking performance errors. Sometimes even the best producer in the World couldn't make a band actually able to 'play' some of the things they choose to record. Having too many spots can draw attention to any such deficiencies. Similarly, with top class bands you can often afford to be more analytical with the balance....there was an example several years ago where the Eikanger-Bjørsvik Musikklag Brass Band from Norway were recorded close miced with the balance being made entirely in post at the discretion of the producer...personally I prefer a performance to be captured rather than created, but there you go.
Do involve the MD and possibly a ~limited~ number of the Band members in the balance check. However, remember that sometimes too many opinions will be detrimental. One CD I released had as part of the approval 'committee' the 2nd horn player. His comment was that the band wasn't balanced as he couldn't hear the 1st horn and 4th man down loud enough....he was expecting it to sound as it did when he was sat in a rehearsal!
Scoping out the hall in advance is a good plan. You may find that you're limited space wise - either in terms of actually getting the Band in the room (in my experience, bands rarely select venues of an appropriate size as it's the last thing they want to spend any of the budget on....or they don't include it at all!) or in terms of where you can put stands, or there may be structural issues (rain on plastic ceilings or single glazed pains?) or noise from outside such as kids football matches, or the caretakers have taken the opportunity to call in the tree surgeons just outside the hall....it all adds up into an interesting experience
I love brass bands, they're great
Have fun.
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- Aural Reject
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Re: Recording a Brass Band Ensemble?
Hello all,
Many thanks for all of your useful advice and techniques etc, you have certainly provided some food for thought prior to getting the sessions underway. I will be hopefully speaking to the conductor this Wednesday so I'll have a better idea of the size of the band and more about the sound they are hoping to achieve.
Good news is that I have enough mics and polar patterns to cover all of the techniques listed so like most of you said, it will really depend as to what sounds good on the day.
I'll keep you posted as to how I get on!
Thanks again!
Adam.
Many thanks for all of your useful advice and techniques etc, you have certainly provided some food for thought prior to getting the sessions underway. I will be hopefully speaking to the conductor this Wednesday so I'll have a better idea of the size of the band and more about the sound they are hoping to achieve.
Good news is that I have enough mics and polar patterns to cover all of the techniques listed so like most of you said, it will really depend as to what sounds good on the day.
I'll keep you posted as to how I get on!
Thanks again!
Adam.
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- RevolutionRecordings
- Posts: 2 Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:00 am