Waves Bass rider - Export Automation to avoid latency?

[maxmatthewsmusic]

Hey everyone

Is it possible to export the 'automation' from a waves plugin like Bass Rider / Vocal Rider?

It would be a useful to be able to copy the automation to a trim plugin to avoid latency.

If it is possible is it possible in V11 versions of the software?

Thanks for your help

Max

[manwilde]

Hi. In Reaper, you can freeze a track up to a given FX in the chain. I guess this is what you´re asking about?. Don´t know about other DAWs, probably they have something similar. If yours don´t, just copy the track with only the Waves plugin and work from there, muting the original.

[maxmatthewsmusic]

Hey manwilde,

Thanks for your response.

That's an interesting feature of Reaper but it's not exactly what I'm after.
I'm looking to export the actual "shape" of the automation from a plugin like Bass rider.

I should in theory be able to then copy that "shape" to a different plugin's automation lane such as "utility" or "gain". This would remove any latency as those plugins have ~0ms.

I started looking on youtube and it seems possible in V12 of the plugin when using Logic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBZgTmzIo3E

I use Ableton and am limited to using V11 of the plugin which I think is barren of the capability I am looking for.

If anyone knows if it is possible it would be much appreciated!

Max

[The Elf]

I feel sure with those levellers you can export the automation, at least in Cubase, but I've never done it.

[RonanMcDermott]

I'm not familiar with that plugin. But if it records the automation within the plugin rather than within the DAW, it seems to me to be a walled garden (proprietary, therefore not good).
Can you use DAW automation instead?
If I've misunderstood, kindly ignore me!

[maxmatthewsmusic]

Hey guys,

Thanks for advice/assistance,

Re The Elf:
It could be an Ableton limitation. One can normally "key map" plugins in Ableton allowing a user to record automation from whatever plug-in parameter they want.

You ARE able to write automation out of the plugin but unfortunately not for the parameter I am trying to export - namely the "rider" parameter.

I've ran into the problem before in Ableton - it's a kind of silly limitation because it seems entirely arbitrary.

I think RonanMcDermott is correct in that the automation seems to be recorded "within" the plugin.

Re RonanMcDermott:

You haven't mis-understood at all. You're exactly right in that it looks to be a "walled garden." I can of course use DAW automation - I'm just looking to save some time while simultaneously reducing the artifacts & latency which the Bass Rider plug-in adds.

Again thanks for everyone's advice.

Max

[CS70]

If anyone knows if it is possible it would be much appreciated!

It isn't. It's obviously possible to export the result, but not the fader moves themselves, because from the DAW's does not know that there's a fader and the plugin doesn't expose it. I just loaded an instance in a track and your can export the parameters set as a preset of course.

But, perhaps we can help regarding what you would use this envelope for, if it were possible to have it? The specific micro-movements would make sense only for that specific bass line, but if you for example wants some other bus to follow the variations, there's other ways..

[maxmatthewsmusic]

Hey CS70,

Thanks for the clarification.

I am actually really looking for the "specific micro-movements."

I was really just looking to automate the volume of a Bass DI to avoid having to compress the signal too much (whilst also avoiding any additional latency or artifacts, + saving some time).

I could just double the track before using the plug-in and then print down the second version of the track (with an instance of the plugin on it) and then line it up to the first track to nullify the latency... (there would still be artifacts of course).

I'll have a mess around.

If you have any other recommended plug-ins for this type of "automatic-automation" hit me up!

Thanks for your help

Max

[The Elf]

Ah, I see that it's Vocal Rider I was recalling that enables the fader to be captured as automation. Pity that this facility didn't make it into Bass Rider.

[CS70]

I was really just looking to automate the volume of a Bass DI to avoid having to compress the signal too much (whilst also avoiding any additional latency or artifacts, + saving some time).

Hmm.. well, a compressor is automation of the volume knob. I agree the BR has a nicer interface coming from a player perspective, but you can get the same effect with a couple of compressors, one set with no makeup gain to ensure the max level doesn't go over the range top, and another with makeup gain to ensure the lower-volume bits get brought up to the range bottom. As of latency, I suspect the BR has a little lookahead to allow it to minimize fast-attack distortion (and compensates for that by anticipating the grab of the signal), which is probably controlled by the "spill" and "artifacts" knob.

But in practice I've never met a bass line made by a decent player that needed more than a single compressor to keep in line...

[Drew Stephenson]

But in practice I've never met a bass line made by a decent player that needed more than a single compressor to keep in line...

::: looks at bass :::

::: looks at plugin chain on recent recording :::

::: adds 'learn to play bass' to new year's resolutions :::

[The Elf]

To be fair to Waves, Bass Rider is more sophisticated than a simple compressor, or the most agile of human fader handlers, but... I agree that it shouldn't take much to tame a bass.

[CS70]

But in practice I've never met a bass line made by a decent player that needed more than a single compressor to keep in line...

::: looks at bass :::

::: looks at plugin chain on recent recording :::

::: adds 'learn to play bass' to new year's resolutions :::

Simply stop all the slapping and you'll be fine

[maxmatthewsmusic]

Thanks for the great feedback on this post!

It's good to know that Vocal rider can capture the automation - will definitely check that out!

[ManFromGlass]

Just for fun -
Why don’t you put vocal rider on the bass track and see if it gets you where you want to go. You never know in this crazy music world of braking the rules.
(Breaking not braking - grrrr autokorekt)

[maxmatthewsmusic]

Good idea!

[The Elf]

Good idea!

I know that Bass Rider avoids fader movements during sustained notes. Vocal Rider may have a very different mode of operation. See how you get on a report back!

[Mick C]

You can record the fader moves of vocal rider directly into the automation lane of your daw track in real time, then remove the plug-in entirely, leaving the recorded automation in the track. This may solve your plug-in latency issue but also means you can nudge or edit that automation if you don’t agree with vocal rider’s ‘decisions’. I did this a while back, could even haven been version 9, and I did edit the automation in the daw because the recorded fader moves were too detailed.
I’d be surprised if bass rider doesn’t work the same way but if it doesn’t you could use vocal rider on the bass track and edit the automation afterwards to taste.
I think the method of recoding the fader moves into the track automation is described in the manual but if not I’m sure you’ll find it on you tube

[The Elf]

I’d be surprised if bass rider doesn’t work the same way...

It doesn't. I checked.

[maxmatthewsmusic]

Hey guys,

Yeah Vocal rider works perfectly as Mick C described and as The Elf suggested in that you are free to edit the automation as you wish.
It doesn't sound as good as Bass rider unfortunately but perhaps that is to be expected...(It's quite jumpy)

I've attached an image where I have copied the "Vocal Rider" automation to Ableton 10's Utility plugin.

Just a note: Since beginning this thread I have upgraded from Ableton 9 to Ableton 10.

Imgur link to screenshot:
https://imgur.com/a/EOmU8t9