Why Neumann KH 80, if they are ported?

[george_vel]

I’m really a fan of the Neumann brand (well, who’s not), but I was wondering why KH 80s are so favorite, when at the end they’re actually a ported speakers?
From what I read so far, ported design is better to be avoided and we should aim for sealed ones in order to prevent any artificial boost in the lows.

Let me know your thoughts about this.

Thanks!

[Aled Hughes]

Ported speakers are not inherently bad.

The problem is when it's done bad - like on a lot of cheap speakers. In these cases, the port is often used to exaggerate the bass response of the system and make it sound 'impressive', at the expense of accuracy.

But that isn't true for good ported systems like the Neumanns.

[Luke W]

The short answer is because they're good. There's nothing inherently wrong with ported speakers, as long as they're designed and built well. In the same way that a having sealed cabinet alone doesn't make a speaker good.

I'm sure others with more expertise in this area will be along to explain in more detail, but there's a lot more to a good speaker than whether or not it has some holes in it.

[george_vel]

The short answer is because they're good. There's nothing inherently wrong with ported speakers, as long as they're designed and built well.

But why? What exactly makes them better than other ported brands?

At the end, a whole is a whole - it is there to resonate the lower frequencies.

I even saw some people sticking socks in the wholes to reduce the effect

[Drew Stephenson]

Firstly, a hole is not a hole. The size, shape, length and position of the hole all make a difference. And a hole that works with one cabinet and driver combo won't work with another.
Likewise a sealed cabinet isn't just a sealed cabinet. The construction of the cabinet, internal baffling and the driver all make a difference.
Have a listen to a £300 pair of monitors from a decent brand and you'll hear that it's actually possible to make some pretty good speakers at that price. But to really start going beyond that you'll need to put some serious R&D and design time in to make clear improvements. And controlling the low end is one of the biggest challenges.
The other thing about the KH80s is the Digital Signal Processing (DSP) in them, this makes them more than just a couple of drivers stuck in a cabinet (with or without a hole).

Seriously this is a whole, complex field of engineering, it's not just a hole or no hole.

[Luke W]

At the end, a whole is a whole - it is there to resonate the lower frequencies.

But it's how well it does that that's the important bit. There's a lot more going on behind what you see from the outside, it's not just a case of drilling a hole in the baffle, getting a bit more low end and being done with it.

I can't give you the precise details because I simply don't know them My understanding of speaker design is very basic, and as I say you'll get far more helpful and knowledgeable replies from others. However it's not a clear cut good/bad situation, there are some seriously good monitors around that are ported. I very much doubt anyone's sticking socks in their ATC's, and that's not just because their feet aren't big enough...

[James Perrett]

I'd suggest taking a bit of time to read some of Phil Ward's reviews in the magazine. He's a speaker designer himself so his reviews explain the thinking behind the design of the speakers he reviews and are really educational.

Here's one that deals with ports - https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/os-acoustics-db7

and there's more reading at https://musicandmiscellany.com/2018/03/ ... and-boxes/

[Hugh Robjohns]

From what I read so far, ported design is better to be avoided and we should aim for sealed ones in order to prevent any artificial boost in the lows.
Let me know your thoughts about this.

My thoughts are: a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and more reading and understanding is required.

A bad ported design is bad. A good ported design is good.

Some very small, low-cost ported speakers are designed in a way that abuses the port to try to deliver more and deeper bass than is reasonable for the cabinet size, and that typically results in extensive LF time smearing, which is unhelpful and rightly listed as a con.

Much has been made of this aspect of many budget speakers by some, with the unintended consequence of apparently tarring all ported speakers with the same brush. However, if you examine the very best, high-end monitor speakers from ATC, Genelec, Dynaudio, PSI, PMC, ADAM, Neumann, B&W and countless others, the great majority of them are ported (or vented), and for very good reasons.

By the way, I know of more than one sealed cabinet speaker that suffers considerable LF time-smearing because of poorly controlled internal resonances, and I know of several small ported cabinet speakers that have negligible time smearing through extremely good design.

The devil is in the detail...

[Frank Rideau]

I have a pair of KH-80.
Very clear and define, flat frequency response.
I'd say that, if you are actually used to more colored bass speakers, you might need to adapt to its low end, which will first feel a little thin in comparison.
So definitively not the problem associated with ported design here.

[CS70]

But why? What exactly makes them better than other ported brands?

The same thing that makes a 250 tons plane fly, and a 1t car not: shape, geometry, and positioning.

[Bob Bickerton]

The same thing that makes a 250 tons plane fly...........

Ah, the old heavier than air machines can fly conspiracy theory..

Not sure I can add much to this, as I base my purchase decisions on how stuff sounds, not because of my technical prowess in analysing the world of sound propagation!

Having said that, I've just moved over to Neumann KH80s from PMC Result6s and to my ears, there are no practical issues that I'm aware of related to them being a ported design.

Bob

[Watchmaker]

Having said that, I've just moved over to Neumann KH80s from PMC Result6s and to my ears, there are no practical issues that I'm aware of related to them being a ported design.

Bob

May I inquire about the impetus for this transition?

[Bob Bickerton]

Short answer - blame Robjohns ........

Longer answer - I have some location recording coming up where I wanted to pack a pair of monitors easily into a flight case so purchased the Neumanns based on Hugh's review.

I set them up in the studio to get used to their sound and was instantly impressed, to the point where I started to question which was better, the Neumanns or the PMCs. Actually 'better' isn't really the right word to use - which would be most 'workable' in terms of making mix decisions. I discussed this in a recent thread on this forum.

In the end I decided there was really no point in having two sets of good monitors and there's something to be said for using the same monitors whether you're in the studio or on location (I think).

Have spent the last two days mixing chamber music recordings from a festival and summer school I'm really pleased with what I'm hearing.

Perhaps I should qualify this by saying I work with mainly acoustic genres. I'd imagine I'd need to do more headphone checks for bass heavy material - but then I have a fairly small control room, so its not a good idea to have heaps of bass bouncing around the walls anyway!

Bob

[george_vel]

Oh, looking at how I wrote the word “hole” I was definitely sleepy last night! Sorry about the typo.

Hugh, I know that I know very little and it can be dangerous. That’s why I am asking questions - with the help of forum members to steer my thoughts in the right direction.

James, fair point, I have to read more, and thanks for the links.

Thanks for all your answers. (Now I am also aware why my car cannot fly )

[Arpangel]

Buying a speaker on the basis of "is it ported, or not" is a very bad idea, as has been stated in 75% of the rest of this thread.
However, there are some variables to be aware of, with ported designs, note the position of the port, it could cause problems if it’s on the rear, be careful about positioning, keep away from walls and corners.
My experience has been that sealed enclosure designs have been less susceptible to untreated room problems, than ported ones, I don’t know why.
Some of my favourite monitors have been un-ported, but that being said, I own three pairs at the moment, one is a sealed box, and the other two are ported, I love them all, so back to square one, but just bare in mind, listen to monitors in an unbiased way, and think carefully about how and where you are going to be using them,this would affect my final buying decisions either way.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Hugh, I know that I know very little and it can be dangerous. That’s why I am asking questions - with the help of forum members to steer my thoughts in the right direction.

Reading my response back in the cold light of morning, I fear my comment could be interpreted as a personal dig, but that wasn't my intention. The only point I was trying to make was that this 'all ported monitors are bad' mantra which I hear continuously from all quarters is over-simplistic and misleading. There is a nugget of truth at the centre, but the true picture is rather more nuanced.

Some ported monitors are bad... and they are generally the smallest and/or cheapest ones where the designers have tried to extract far more performance from the system than it is genuinely capable of. A decade or two ago, this description applied quite widely to the budget end of so-called 'studio monitors'. Thankfully, things have improved since then, although there are undoubtedly still a few models that are worth avoiding... The KH80 is definitely not one of them.

[Arpangel]

For what it’s worth, I’ve been lent KH80’s for long periods of time, and used them when helping on location sessions, choral, organ, orchestral ensembles.
When we first started using them we were very surprised at how beautifully transparent they were for the size/price etc, you could just get on and ignore them.
In fact, we preferred them to a lot more expensive and bigger options, even by the same manufacturer, for our purposes.
On that basis I’d highly recommend them for an audition, definitely should be put at the top of any short list.

[Hugh Robjohns]

For what it’s worth, I’ve been lent KH80’s for long periods of time, and used them when helping on location sessions, choral, organ, orchestral ensembles.

Really? They were only launched two years ago and I don't recall you mentioning having these speakers on hand or helping out on all these sessions. Might you be thinking of a different speaker entirely?

[Watchmaker]

Short answer - blame Robjohns .......Bob

Will do!

I also bought KH80's based on the SOS review. I live in a pretty rural area and wasn't able to audition anything so took a flyer. I love these little speakers but, being a bit of a berk when it comes to gear, I'm always wondering how they stack up to pricier gear and it's interesting to see how competitive these really are. I know my mixes translate far better than ever and there's no way in hades I could afford something like PMC or ATCs.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Short answer - blame Robjohns .......Bob

Will do!

Everyone does...

I'm always wondering how they stack up to pricier gear...

You'd need to spend quite a lot more to get better... Same with the KH310s. They really are excellent monitors in the absolute sense, regardless of the price, but they are also excellent value for money too.

[Arpangel]

For what it’s worth, I’ve been lent KH80’s for long periods of time, and used them when helping on location sessions, choral, organ, orchestral ensembles.

Really? They were only launched two years ago and I don't recall you mentioning having these speakers on hand or helping out on all these sessions. Might you be thinking of a different speaker entirely?

You’re right Hugh, it was the 120, got confused, about the badging, size, they just looked the same.
Mike had a pair of 120’s and he let me have those for awhile, he was going to audition the replacement for his 300’s, but never got around to it, I had those for awhile too, didn’t get on with them, I think we both preferred the 120’s in our rooms.

[Hugh Robjohns]

You’re right Hugh, it was the 120...

I suspected that might be the case.

Mike had a pair of 120’s...

You may be right, although the 120s only came out in 2012 (three years before his death), and I was under the impression Mike had used that model's predecessors, the K+H O110 or possibly the O100s when it was still manufactured under the Klein+Hummel brand name.

The Neumann KH120 is an extremely good all-analogue speaker too, but the KH80's more advanced DSP technology and updated drivers gives it an impressive performance edge over its (fractionally larger) stable mate.

[Arpangel]

You’re right Hugh, it was the 120...

I suspected that might be the case.

Mike had a pair of 120’s...

You may be right, although the 120s only came out in 2012 (three years before his death), and I was under the impression Mike had used that model's predecessors, the K+H O110 or possibly the O100s when it was still manufactured under the Klein+Hummel brand name.

The Neumann KH120 is an extremely good all-analogue speaker too, but the KH80's more advanced DSP technology and updated drivers gives it an impressive performance edge over its (fractionally larger) stable mate.

Now you’ve got me, I know he had two pairs of 0110’s, which I borrowed a few times.
I think??? he did buy some 120’s??? Not sure, although, when we were selling his estate, they weren’t there.
I liked the 0110’s, we were always impressed with them, great size for location too.