Reaper. Is this a PC Thing?

[The Bunk]

Just been doing some "Group Parameters" stuff in Reaper and have noticed it's no longer "Volume / EQ / Stereo etc MASTER and SLAVE but "LEAD" and "FOLLOW". Interesting!

[muzines]

Yes, Justin (Reaper developer) changed that recently to move away from those old, racially-loaded terms - it's happening quite a bit in tech at the moment - eg "Whitelist/Blacklist" is being changed to "Allow/Deny lists" and so on.

It's a good thing I think, in general.

[The Bunk]

Yep, I agree with this one. There's been a lot of madness lately but I think that's a good move and nicely and discreetly done.

[resistorman]

This is such an obvious thing to do and long overdue, IMHO. Words have power and become so ingrained into our cultures they become invisible. But the effect is there.

[Charles101]

We should also not get into a Kneejerk reaction, and eliminate white chalk and black paint.
As a kid growing up in NYC, I never associated white / black as racist.
To me, white was the absence of color, and Black was the absence of light. To this day,
I still refer to them as such. What I did find racist was the accepted term by those of
darker skinned people who referred to themselves as "colored", as opposed to African,
or any other ethnic term. I never thought of myself as "white", I was just Caucasian.

Just think... I missed out on all that "privilege".

And sexual preference was something private, nothing to be parading down the boulevard about.
and no, I wasn't ashamed of my body, but I did have modesty.

But I grew up in a different time.

Charles

[muzines]

We should also not get into a Kneejerk reaction, and eliminate white chalk and black paint.

The colours themselves are not inherently racially loaded, but their use and context in associating "white" with good, pure, correct, desirable etc and black with bad, undesirable, unwanted, lesser etc seems a more racially loaded use, and if it can be avoided with terminology that works equally well, then so much the better.

I don't think anyone would reasonably argue the use of Master/Slave is a good thing to continue to perpetuate, for instance.

It's not about being *politically correct* (as these things sometimes are), imo, it's just the *correct* thing to do...

[ConcertinaChap]

Must admit I completely misread this subject and was going to reply: yes, it's PC but it's Mac as well ...

CC

[Charles101]

We should also not get into a Kneejerk reaction, and eliminate white chalk and black paint.

The colours themselves are not inherently racially loaded, but their use and context in associating "white" with good, pure, correct, desirable etc and black with bad, undesirable, unwanted, lesser etc seems a more racially loaded use, and if it can be avoided with terminology that works equally well, then so much the better.

I don't think anyone would reasonably argue the use of Master/Slave is a good thing to continue to perpetuate, for instance.

It's not about being *politically correct* (as these things sometimes are), imo, it's just the *correct* thing to do...

I quite agree about the color's themselves..., if it can be avoided..., and "political correctness"

But white is associated with good, as evidenced by laundry ads...being "whiter than white" ..
something to be aspired. White by definition is absence of color. ie. unadulterated. Pure.

However, I have never seen a white person. They're flesh toned, not white. Even dead scar tissue has a pinkish tone, when compared to a piece of white paper.

I referred, to the practice inherent in humans, to apply the changes of one idea, to everything.

Charles

[shufflebeat]

I remember a time (so many problematic statements begin with this) before the term "politically correct" was considered derisory. My own first experience of it came during the '80s when people were re-examining their surroundings and identifying, often for their first time, the assumptions on which they depend.

I also remember the first time I heard the term used negatively. It started with a sneer, as though it belonged in "quotation marks" but soon they were dropped and the phrase had been co-opted by it's detractors to represent a negative process with all kinds a of limp-wristed hand wringing associations.

This looks to me like good evidence of linguistic evolution which, if not monitored, subverts the meanings of terms until they become unrepresentative and language becomes less communicative.

It seems like a good idea to keep an eye on language and it's use and recalibrate a few signposts when the map shifts. If that is what's happened here then it looks like a good move.

[Mike Stranks]

I applaud any attempt to remove unconscious (which become subconscious) references to racial and gender divides...

But they are deeply ingrained and finding alternatives with meaning needs some thought.

I'm consciously trying not to use black/white as an either/or term. But I do like the phrase 'agonising shades of grey' to explain that sometimes moral choices are hard and not obvious. But if I've switched to 'binary', rather than 'b/w' I have to find another phrase... And will everyone understand (at present) if I say 'Binary' rather than 'B/W'?

Trivial I know compared to centuries of racial and gender hierarchies, but just an illustration of how switching to new forms can be more complicated than it might first seem. It's not necessarily a simple binary issue.

[shufflebeat]

I agree with your thinking, Mike, but see two dangers with this:

Black vs white is a really good (not the only) metaphor/example of binary choice. It is possible to read subtext into it, particularly when that subtext is definitely intended as a sneery veiled message, but to reframe the language to accommodate unintended, imagined or potential meanings is both an unending rabbit hole project and also creates fodder for those who feign (or genuinely feel) discomfort-rage at any kind of intrusion into their comfort zone.

The other problem is that it sometimes gives the impression of progress without actually addressing the issue which puts those "message manipulators" we have recently become so familiar with, in positions of greater influence.

I would argue we are better exercising and improving our analytical and critical faculties and working towards shared understanding based on principles of conflict resolution.

[Arpangel]

We should also not get into a Kneejerk reaction, and eliminate white chalk and black paint.

The colours themselves are not inherently racially loaded, but their use and context in associating "white" with good, pure, correct, desirable etc and black with bad, undesirable, unwanted, lesser etc seems a more racially loaded use, and if it can be avoided with terminology that works equally well, then so much the better.

I don't think anyone would reasonably argue the use of Master/Slave is a good thing to continue to perpetuate, for instance.

It's not about being *politically correct* (as these things sometimes are), imo, it's just the *correct* thing to do...

Black, and white, I’ve always thought of black to mean darkness, the eternity of space, or death, nothing.
White is light, the bringer of life, the sun, it’s got no racial connection AFAIC.
As far as skin colour goes, there isn’t such a thing as black, or white skin, we are a multitude of shades.

[ore_terra]

I'd understand it if they would any sort of connotations to the slave-master thing in audio, but are we not just using the very meaning of both words?

master: dictates what to do (what to follow)
slave: obeys

[shufflebeat]

I'd understand it if they would any sort of connotations to the slave-master thing in audio, but are we not just using the very meaning of both words?

master: dictates what to do (what to follow)
slave: obeys

Pick your non-associated phrase -

Parent/child
Lead/follow
Unit controller/unit
King(Queen)/pawn
Manager/worker
Degenerate capitalist oppressor of the masses/heroic proletariat
Priv/pleb

I've got loads, no hidden messages there.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I still like Yoda/Skywalker, or Jedi/Padawan....

[muzines]

I'd understand it if they would any sort of connotations to the slave-master thing in audio, but are we not just using the very meaning of both words?

Yes. The meaning of which was originated in, and defined by, human slavery...

[ore_terra]

I'd understand it if they would any sort of connotations to the slave-master thing in audio, but are we not just using the very meaning of both words?

Yes. The meaning of which was originated in, and defined by, human slavery...

ahm... so it's just about not using the "S" word, as if like that it would vanish from history.

a bit childish, IMO. even to speak against slavery you still need to name it.

doubt solved, though.

[muzines]

ahm... so it's just about not using the "S" word, as if like that it would vanish from history.

No, it's about not vanishing, or sweeping under the rug, anything from history. We should learn from history, not forget it, but that doesn't mean we should continue shape our culture going forward based on a problematic past.

No one is saying changing our use of problematic terms out of context is about forgetting history.

a bit childish, IMO. even to speak against slavery you still need to name it.

When people want to talk about slavery, that would be an appropriate, culturally relevant, historically significant use of that language.

Language evolves, there's plenty of language used in the past that we consider inappropriate now, and don't generally use. That's all this is - no one's trying to remove the words from the dictionary, we're just suggesting we use less racially loaded terms in a different context - which I wholeheartedly support.

I'm also totally fine with removing monuments to "great men" who built their wealth and influence on slavery too. Keep them in the history books, but putting up monuments to them and celebrating their achievements in public is problematic, for me.

[shufflebeat]

It's probably fair to say this is not yet a conversation based on logical progression or linguistic congruity. There are all kinds of idiosyncratic and contradictory proposals as to "what this is all about" and it will remain so while it's mainly an expression of anger, pain or perceived injustice.

People seem to be held together by polarisation at the minute and I expect there will be as much arguing about what the goal is as there will be about how to achieve... whatever it turns out to be.

Some if it is blindingly obvious but in the weeds anything that looks like evidence of injustice will be highlighted and argued over. Much of it makes no sense.