Live PA overhall Advice

[woodnut]

Hello folks,

I am looking to sort out my live rig as it looks like I will be putting my own nights on much more regularly.

I currently have a very simple rig consisting of :

- A Yamaha EMX 88s powered mixer which has 10 Inputs, 8 of these mic inputs and is 400w per side into 4ohms. It cost me about £450 a good ten years ago.
- A pair of Peavey Pro12 speakers.

Whenever partnering other people's mixers with my Yamaha I have always noticed a jump in sound quality, especially with mics and vocals. The lack of high pass filters or decent EQ on the Yamaha has also been a problem so a new mixer is the first port of call.

With a budget of around £250 I am looking at something like the Soundcraft EFX8 as this has 8 mic inputs what looks like good EQ control and built in FX. I have used a mackie VLZ4 before and thought the preamps sounded very good but the mixers in this range are a tad more pricey and don't have FX or the EQ offered by the Soundcraft. Could anyone offer any comments or share any experience on the sound quality of the preamps and circuitry of the Mackie VLZ4 Onyx vs the Soundcraft EFX8?

Secondly once I have a mixer the Yamaha will be relegated to power amp duty and as this is quite bulky for transport it would make sense to sell this and get a power amp. I am a little lost at what sort of price range or products I should look at to at least match and preferably better the power amp in the Yamaha EMX 88s? There seem to be plenty of cheap and compact class D power amps around and lots of old second han offerings. Any advice here would be great! I think I would have a round £200 ish. Perhaps I would have to hang on to the Yamaha for a while longer and get more cash? I would be looking for around 400w - 600w per channel into 4ohms.

Many thanks in advance for any help or advice any of you may be able to offer.

[dickiefunk]

The Soundcraft EFX8 could be a potential option but I noticed that it doesn't have high pass filters which is something you would ideally want for vocals.

Do you need 8 mic inputs?

[Mike Stranks]

The Soundcraft EFX8 could be a potential option but I noticed that it doesn't have high pass filters which is something you would ideally want for vocals.

Do you need 8 mic inputs?

When I had a Soundcraft E I just used to wind the Lo EQ right back...

[woodnut]

Hi thanks for the replies,

Yes I have got my wires crossed somewhere I thought it did have high pass filters and actually it doesn't. I think I got it mixed up with the Spirit Folio FX which is maybe an older model.

I think 6 mic pres would probably be fine certainly for now and most future scenarios I can imagine.

There seems to be a lot of second hand Soundcraft mixers for sale at what looks like reasonable prices for what is on offer but I am quite unsure which if any are worth looking at. Also as some appear to be very well used and quite old I guess reliability and build quality is key to whether it is worth taking a punt or not.

[Mike Stranks]

You'll generally be OK with more recent used Soundcrafts.

Some of the earlier 'Spirit'-tagged ones left something to be desired both in terms of mic-pre quality and build quality. I had a couple of F1s which both seemed very fragile. The faders would move if you breathed hard on them! They also suffered from an external power-supply with the most awful connector into the mixer I've ever experienced. There was a very high failure rate on these.

You might also consider the Yamaha range. I've used/owned a few and always thought they offered good value for money.

I've never been a big fan of Mackie mixers - Onyx excepted - but others I know rate them. I've never used the onboard FX on one, but I've heard - here - that they are pretty crummy.

You might conceivably get a second-user A&H ZED for your budget. If you can, then probably best of the bunch.

[woodnut]

Thanks for the advice.

The Soundcraft MFXi and The Allen & Heath Zed60 14fx both look like they would really provide everythig I need. I think I might try and raise just a little extra as they are not that far out of budget, especially ex demo or second hand.

I guess you would recommend the Allen & Heath then? Do you know are the FX ok or comparable with th Lexicon on the Soundcraft?

Cheers!

[dickiefunk]

Either should be competent mixers and I would probably be looking at feature set. The Soundcraft MFXi mixers have 2 auxes which would give you two independent monitor mixes and the stereo channels have a 3 band eq. The ZED only has one aux so one monitor mix and the stereo channels only have 2 bands of eq.
I would personally pick the Soundcraft as I would find the extra monitor mix and 3 band eq on the stereo channels very useful.
If you don't need those extra features the Allen & Heath ZED would be a good choice.

[Mike Stranks]

Thanks for the advice.

The Soundcraft MFXi and The Allen & Heath Zed60 14fx both look like they would really provide everythig I need. I think I might try and raise just a little extra as they are not that far out of budget, especially ex demo or second hand.

I guess you would recommend the Allen & Heath then? Do you know are the FX ok or comparable with th Lexicon on the Soundcraft?

Cheers!

The MFXs are now discontinued so you may be able to get a new one at a good price.

I've just downsized dramatically to a Soundcraft MPM (MFX minus FX!) and am pleased with it thus far - only had it for three weeks or so...

The Soundcraft M series are also very good mixers and currently at a very good price. 100mm faders there...

Can't comment on FX on A&H, but the ZEDs are solidly-built and sound good - I had a 420 2-3 years ago.

[woodnut]

Thank you very much for your replies, very helpful. I hadn't spotted the difference in EQ controls on the stereo channels of the two units. I will have to have a think about feature sets.

I shall get a few searches out for the older models you have mentioned also.

Regarding a power amp, initially I will use my Yamaha EMX 88s but I really need to replace it with a dedicated power amp. What sort of products and price range should I be looking at to at least equal the power amp in the Yamaha powered mixer (400w per side into 4ohms). There seem to be alot of very reasonably priced power amps but I don't know if I should be steering clear or not? Are there any second hand sturdy units that I should seek out?

Thanks again!

[Mike Stranks]

Thank you very much for your replies, very helpful. I hadn't spotted the difference in EQ controls on the stereo channels of the two units. I will have to have a think about feature sets.

I shall get a few searches out for the older models you have mentioned also.

Regarding a power amp, initially I will use my Yamaha EMX 88s but I really need to replace it with a dedicated power amp. What sort of products and price range should I be looking at to at least equal the power amp in the Yamaha powered mixer (400w per side into 4ohms). There seem to be alot of very reasonably priced power amps but I don't know if I should be steering clear or not? Are there any second hand sturdy units that I should seek out?

Thanks again!

I've had a couple of the Thomann own-brand power-amps in the past. Good value for money. Others here also speak well of them. Peavey are generally reliable in the power-amp dept. But they can go for silly-money second-hand. Similarly Yamaha.

Best to avoid some of those with unknown brands that clog up the space on EBay... often poorly made with a tendency to expire soon... "Prosound" seem to have a very high casualty rate too...

[grab]

I've had a couple of the Thomann own-brand power-amps in the past. Good value for money. Others here also speak well of them.

Someone once dismantled some "budget" power amps a few years ago. I wish I'd kept the link somewhere now. Basically they were all the same design, and they all had under-spec power supplies. Power supplies are what make a power amp heavy and expensive, so making it lighter is going to be cheaper, and customers will prefer it too - right up to the point they actually try running it at its limits and it goes "fut".

The old-school heavy dinosaurs are likely to keep going forever. If you're buying a more modern power amp that says it has a switch-mode power supply to make it lighter, be *very* sceptical about anything without solid provenance and a good warranty.

[dickiefunk]

Personally I would go with active speakers. As you know gear can go down and I've been on gigs where the power amp has gone down and we've had no FOH pa
With active speakers if an amp goes down (which I've not experienced YET) you've still got another active speaker which could save the gig!

A pair of Alto TS112a's coupled with a Soundcraft MFXi would be a very nice little compact system.

[Sam Spoons]

+1, both to the powered speaker option (often much better value than a separates system) and the Alto Truesonic range.

[woodnut]

Many thanks for the advice and replies it is very much appreciated.

I am quite interested in the powered speaker option, I had thought that later down the line it might be good to get better 12" speakers than the Peavey Pro12s that I have at the moment. I don't have any specific issue with them but since my mixing desk will be better it would be good to upgrade here also. It certainly makes sens to do it at the same time as the power amp and get it all in one package.

Would the Alto Truesonic represent a step up in quality over my Peavey Pro12s? I have no experience of this brand at all.

Thank you for the suggestion however, I shall investigate. There are a few good 0% finance deals being offered so any other suggestions for good quality powered 12" speakers would be very welcome and perhaps I can do the lot in one swoop.

Thanks again!

[Sam Spoons]

Are your Peaveys Messenger Pro12s? If so, while I haven't heard the Peaveys, I'd expect the Alto Truesonic TS112As to be a significant step up in both output and quality. I did a comparison of several active 12" boxes last year and found the TS112A sounded, to my ears, considerably better than than the Mackie SRM450 at twice the price. The held their own in other better company (EV ELX/RCF ART312 etc) too. Exceptional VFM, I have a TS110A as a spare/extra monitor wedge.

[Mike Stranks]

Depends on budget, but you might want to check-out the Yamaha DXR series. The 10s might be more than adequate for you.

The Altos, rightly, have a strong following here, but so too do the DXRs. (Other speaker brands and models are available!)

The Peavey PROs are OK entry-level speakers, but in all honesty are nothing to write home about. (And I speak as a former Peavey speaker owner myself - not the PROs though.) You can do much better without spending too much cash. The good news is that the Peaveys will always find a ready market on EBay.

[shufflebeat]

If you do decide to go down the power amp route, the best advice I've been given recently is that due to recent manufacturing/marketing trends the best way is to buy new rather than second hand so that when it develops a problem it will be covered by the manufacturer's warranty. Many repairwallahs don't want anything to do with cheaply made amps as repairs are often not economically realistic.

Don't know if this chimes with anyone else's experience but I've had it from several trusted sources now.

[woodnut]

Thanks again for the help.

The Peavey Pro12s are not the messenger version and are not on Peaveys website either. The Yamahas look great but I don't think I can go much over £500ish for the pair.

Following the advice, I am quite keen on the powered speaker route and in particular a pair of
Alto TS112A. I am a little unsure if I am going to be gaining power versus my current system.

The EMX 88S is rated for 400watts into 4ohms which the Peavey Pro12s are.
Spec sheet says MAIN L, R: 400 W+400 W/4 Ω @0.5% THD

The Alto TS112A spec says :
800 Watts peak (670 W LF + 130 W HF)
400 Watts continuous (335 W LF + 65 W HF)

I admit I struggle with power rating specs and appreciate there is a bit more to it than just specs but if anyone could chime in that would be great. The last couple of gigs I have done I have been pushing the levels a bit with not much room left so I need to at least equal what I already have in a new system.

Many thanks.

[woodnut]

Are your Peaveys Messenger Pro12s? If so, while I haven't heard the Peaveys, I'd expect the Alto Truesonic TS112As to be a significant step up in both output and quality.

Sorry I think I originally misunderstood when you said output you were referring to the power output. That answers my question above then.

[Mike Stranks]

The following observation relates specifically to 'loudness' when you're using a separate amp and speakers:

It's not just a case of what RMS watts the amp is outputting and the rating of the speakers. It's also to do with speaker efficiency. This is quoted as a dB figure. (To keep things simple I won't go into the way that this is measured.) But the higher the number the better...

So for instance many years ago I upgraded from some Peavey speakers to some JBL ones. It was the same amp which had always had plenty in hand with the Peaveys. Suddenly with the JBLs - with the same impedance - the amp is running flat-out and the volume is less. Then I checked the efficiency - Paeaveys in high 90s, JBLs in high 80s. In dB terms that's a LOT!

So even if you're buying powered speakers you still need to be aware of efficiency and maximum dB ratings (the TS112a is rated at 125dB peak, 122dB continuous); with separate amps and speakers the relative efficiencies of different speakers under consideration are even more vital to check.

[Sam Spoons]

Are your Peaveys Messenger Pro12s? If so, while I haven't heard the Peaveys, I'd expect the Alto Truesonic TS112As to be a significant step up in both output and quality.

Sorry I think I originally misunderstood when you said output you were referring to the power output. That answers my question above then.

Power amps have a "power output" speakers have a "power handling" and as Mike says the efficiency rating of the speakers is also hugely relevant when trying to assess the noise you can make.

He's also right about the Yamaha DXRs (though I know they are out of your budget) they are very good indeed and I have three of the DXR10s as my main monitor rig with the Alto TS110A as a spare (I will buy another TS110A when I next need an additional wedge though, they are very good value for money).

[woodnut]

Hi, thanks once again for taking the time to reply.

I spent quite a bit of time reading last night about the Yamaha DXR12s and they really sound like the ticket albeit double the price of the Altos. I am wondering whether I should save more cash to get a system that will be a keeper long term.

The Alto's are in a store locally to me but the DXRs unfortunately aren't at the moment though that store does deal with them. I will go and have a listen to the Alto's but I wondered if you might be able to share your experience of the two.

Is it a large step up in sound quality and output level, that is worthy in your opinions, of the extra cash from the Alto's to the Yamaha DXR's? The DXR's seem to go a bit lower which would be real nice for certain applications.

Many thanks again!

[dickiefunk]

I have the Alto TS112a's and the Yamaha DXR15's. Whilst the Alto's are a very nice sounding speaker the DXR15's are a noticeable step up. I've not heard the DXR12's.

I guess it all depends on what you really feel you can justify spending on your system. I would be very happy to use the Alto TS112a's + the Soundcraft MFXi mixer and you should find this to be a nice step up from what you already own!

There are other options in between the Alto TS112a and Yamaha DXR12 which are :- EV ZLX112p and RCF ART 312a. There's also a 15" version of the Alto's which is the TS115a if you want a little more low end extension.

What type of events are you intending to use the PA for and what are you expecting to run through it?

[woodnut]

Hi, Thank you for the reply.

It would be a bit of a stretch and I would need to save more cash but I can justify the cost in terms of the persuit for better sound. I think that hopefully this could be the last live rig that I buy hence me looking at something a bit more special than the Alto's which I think would be fine for my application.

In terms of use, mainly acoustic enembles which could involve percussion or a stripped down kit (not the kick drum). Occasional double bass or cello. Usually quiet-ish venues / atmospheres 50-150 people. It would be nice to have a bit of flexibility as I can use the gear to earn back a bit of cash towards the expense of the initial outlay.

Last week with my current rig I had a double bass to deal with and was surprised how well it actually sounded, with the Peavey Pro12 down at around 70Hz I thought it might sound crap but it actually worked quite well. Yes it didn't get the fullest bottom notes but listening to the performance it sounded well balanced.

Would you say that the quality / cost of the powered speakers would be a more important element than the desk if I was to do the upgrade piece by piece?

Thanks again!

[Sam Spoons]

If you do double bass often I'd look at investing in a single sub at some point, two DXR12s and a single DXS15 would be a real keeper of a rig. OTOH couple of Alto Ts112A and the matching TSsub would be 80% as good for around half the cost of the Yamahas. One pays one's money............

Time for a listening trip?