Best Workstation For Live Use

[Guido3]

As most of my previous post have alluded to, I play live a lot. My current keyboard rig consists of a Roland Fantom X8 and a Kurzweil PC3 and a Mac covering some sequenced bits a bobs.

I did a festival last weekend a during the 30 min band turnaround which included set-up and soundcheck the sound guy had trouble patching my keys through to the FOH desk (don't know why!!!). This resulted in a very rushed soundcheck.

This all got me thinking. Why am I carting around so much gear? Surely, I can achieve what I do with one really good keyboard. I could convert the files on my Mac to .wavs and run them as audio tracks on a good workstation. And with a bit of 'clever' work on patch changes etc... I should be able to get away with just one 88 note workstation.

Less gear to carry around + less time to soundcheck = More time to play. Not forgetting my studio at home would look a lot neater which gives me a happy wife!!!!!

Choices as I see it are:-

Roland Fantom G
Yamaha Motif XF
Korg Kronos
Kurzweil PC3k8

My Thoughts:-
I am a total Kurzweil convert. The PC3 is easily one of the best boards I have ever had. However, I am a little worried using it as my only keyboard due to the screen size. I will be doing extensive programming to prepare for my gigs and I feel the small screen will drive me mad in the long term.

The Fantom G makes the most sense as I already know my way around the Fantom X. Something in me is saying "Beware" I just don't know why.

I have never played a Motif XF or a Korg Kronos so this is where I could do with some help for you fine fellows.

I could even track down a s/h Korg Oasys.

I just want to make the correct choice as I haven't got the 'downtime' available to do this twice!

[Dave B]

Personally, I would go with the Kurzweil (no shock there then) as :

a) it sounds great
b) you can always program it from the Mac if you want to
c) it will do all that you want
d) after a while that little screen really does become second nature!

I did try the Fantom G thingy ages ago and had a bad experience so I'm biased.

I've tried a Kronos and it's good ... but for some reason the one I tried took nearly 10 mins to boot up. And was full of 'one key kitchen sink' sounds which I'd have to throw away. Oh.. and the piano was pretty but lacked body. On the plus side, it did have a proper organ sim rather than samples. But then it is _huge_ as a machine - much lugging will be needed. But then the PC3K8 won't be lighter either...



Choices choices ....

[The Elf]

+1 for the Kurzweil option.

The amount of time you're going to be programming it versus the amount of time you'll be just using it is tiny by comparison - the capabilities and sound of the Kurzweil are worth the effort.

[Guido3]

You can always program it from the Mac if you want to

Good point, I forgot about the editor software.

I did try the Fantom G thingy ages ago and had a bad experience so I'm

What problems did you have with the Fantom G?

[Scramble]

If you're doing live work with tight turnarounds then you really don't want a keyboard that takes ages to boot up.

[Rob R]

thought i'd google a left-field thought for those like me who don't fancy taking the computer out...... and lo and behold...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQrDTSeXhks

I'll get me coat

I've always fancied listening to a kurzweil to see if it fits my musical style (which is NOT the usual blasted jazz funk demo playing you see on youtube).. but can you find one to try? Oooooh no.

I'm v happy with my Nord, but I do miss the immediacy of a workstation for a sketchpad, and the the Kronos just does not do it for me... again, not helped by the godawful one-man-band demos on YT, nor by its baffling interface when I've tried one.

So I say, since you're happy with the kurz, stick with it plus computer?

FWIW I owned a Motif ES8 once. I can't vouch for it as a live board I was a bedroom musician back then, but I do miss it for what I do - I find DAW recording counter intuitive for ideas. I had considered an XF6 to compliment the Nord, but am open to the PC3K6 if I can lay me hands on one to see if there's more to it than the YT demos tell me...
One comment oft labelled at the yamaha boards is the user interface complexity... which leads me to think can you cope with a learning curve in the live environment? Personally all I had to do was get hold of a tutorial DVD and I then "got it" and once "in" found it very intuitive.
The sounds are very "up front" compared to Roland to my ears. I despised the G (having once owned the fantom S I was very disappointed on my various demos of it). You don't spend that money for a frankly appalling piano sound for a start.

Still quite tempted by the XF for the familiarity side of things, but they aren't cheap, and I know the PC3k6 is somewhat cheaper

Sorry... a bit of a random post as I'm thinking of me too!!! aargh!

[Guido3]

Well, I dusted down my old Powerbook and downloaded the PC3 editor. WOW!! What a fantastic program. I haven't connected it up to my PC3 yet but just clicking around what is available, it is clear it will made editing the PC3 a breeze. Keymaps are simple to create, building up complex patches will be simple. With the 17" screen of my Powerbook, I get the best of both worlds. Kurzweil sounds with the editing real-estate of a Korg Oasys!!!!

Now, just need to track down a PC3k8 and sell my Fantom X8 and PC3.

[Quaver]

If you can live without the 88 Hammer action keys,have you considered the possibility of a Roland Jupiter 80,Ok its not a workstation and more a performance synth,it has a USB wav/Audio player function,and loads of User friendly options for Live patch switching,The screen is ample for all manner of editing,(you can also hook up an Ipad with the synth editor)although this only covers the synth edit section and not every parameter to live sets and registrations,It has very much a similar sound set to the Fantoms,and wouldn't be too much of a learning curve if your used to the Roland ethos.

I would also say check out a Fantom G for Live use having used one for the past 3 years with my band rate it highly,and you'd be pretty much familiar with the functions coming from the X although its not everyones preference,I intend to replace my Fantom G for my jupiter 80 once I've created all the respectable patches I need for our songs,simply because its more perfomance orientated,having used many Korgs since the M1,and right up to including the Oasys,Korgs are great sound sources but lack much of what live players really need,Stopped using my Oasys Live,mainly due a few factors,mostly to do with age/repair costs and fear of not getting parts should it die,and the lugging of it,even with the 76 keys its a hernia and a half with a half decent case,I did consider a replacement Kronos but these seem to have such a poor reputation of late with Korgs Quality control coming under fire which is a shame but its put me off (even though I've been buying Korg synths for many years without a hitch,I kind of grew tired of the setting things up all the time in terms of performance,it was only after a friend opened my eyes to Roland's way of doing it,i realised how much the Korgs lacked for realtime performance and have only started addressing this with the Kronos by adding the Live set mode(simply just the same thing as favourites in the Roland camp)

[TheChorltonWheelie]

I am a total Kurzweil convert.

I don't see the point of this post: you clearly want a Kurweil, save the typing and simply buy one.

If you were buying a new workstation on the strength of its sounds, you'd buy a Kronos.
If you were buying a new workstation on the strength of the live/workstation features, you'd buy a G-Fantom (even if the sounds are a little old in the tooth).
If you were buying a workstation on the strength of the live sets, you'd buy a Jupiter 50/80.
If you were buying a workstation on the strength of the onboard editing, via a PC, you'd buy a Kronos.

I've had Kurweil's, there isn't a person on this planet that'll convince anyone with ears that they sound better than the new generation Kronos/Jupiter/Fantom-G keyboards, as quite simply, they don't. They're not as editable as the Kronos, or the Jupiter with the iPad applications, and the registrations are nowhere near the level of the Jupiter.

[Guido3]

I am a total Kurzweil convert.

I don't see the point of this post: you clearly want a Kurweil, save the typing and simply buy one.

If you were buying a new workstation on the strength of its sounds, you'd buy a Kronos.
If you were buying a new workstation on the strength of the live/workstation features, you'd buy a G-Fantom (even if the sounds are a little old in the tooth).
If you were buying a workstation on the strength of the live sets, you'd buy a Jupiter 50/80.
If you were buying a workstation on the strength of the onboard editing, via a PC, you'd buy a Kronos.

I've had Kurweil's, there isn't a person on this planet that'll convince anyone with ears that they sound better than the new generation Kronos/Jupiter/Fantom-G keyboards, as quite simply, they don't. They're not as editable as the Kronos, or the Jupiter with the iPad applications, and the registrations are nowhere near the level of the Jupiter.

Better go and buy myself a Kronos then!!!

[ClayMan]

Et all;

I have used a multitude of workstations and synths in the past. None of my present keys are considered "recently new", but I have used them from almost every manufacturer currently out there (just posting experience) as I am sure many of you have.

I have heard this discussion "brand X versus brand Y" ad-nauseum and although it really boils down to what and individual does live, and what he/she prefers to do live, there are specific strengths and weeknesses for all the heavy-hitting workstations out there.

When it comes to the Korg Kronos, it's strengths are: excellent sounds across the spectrum, great effects with the best transition audio when changing programs/combinations live, a smaller but good interface (some limitations in bright sunlight), and great sample usage. Weaknesses: build quality is somewhat suspect, screen is not tillable, live performance controls are good but not the best, and they charge you for many of the sound add-ons. They are also very expensive albeit for the most part worth it. I still use an 01/W pro and love it although it is getting rather long in the tooth.

Kurzweil PC3K strengths: VAST is more straight line to use than the KRONOS multi-engine setup, better build quality, the effects IMO are better than those on the KRONOS although only marginally, the PC3K takes advantage of more DSP to make it's sounds which can be ordered any way one wants in the VAST structure, and lastly, the Kurzweil has superior live-performance controls based on it's ability to mute, layer, and solo zones. Weaknesses: The Kronos is more user-friendly due to it's multi synth engine structure and interface (you have to know what you are doing in VAST to get the desired results), the envelopes on the Kurzweil are not as sharp as they are on the KRONOS, the mainline pianos are better in the KRONOS (we are not arguing personals here-the KRONOS has no loops as the sounds are sampled to silence. I love the Kurz triple-strike and use it presently, but the Kronos pianos have a better base sample to work from). Also, the PC3K is limited on the size of the samples it will import as compared to the KRONOS. This is not necesarily bad, just considered a deficiency by some.

To wrap it up, I have read many comparisons where many feel the Kurweil PC3K has a more "organic" quality to it's sounds while the KRONOS is more digital (i.e. flashy) sounding; again not necessarily a bad thing. One last thing: although the sequencer on the Kurzweil is older than that on the KRONOS, it seems to do many things better. This is verfied in many of the Korg forums. This should be enough to make at least an educated decision before you buy one of the two for whoever is reading this. It would not be an easy decision for me, but I do play primarily live venues so I would probably lean to the Kurzweil. Happy shopping!

ClayMan

[jamescrist]

I know this is an old thread but I currently have a used S90 ES and LOVE the action (tried Kronos, Montage, Roland, etc) I even tried the S90 XS and sent it back. Didn't play as well as the S90 ES.

However, as a midi controller for my studio and a live performance synth, the PC3K8 wins hands down. I LOVE to layer percussion on the left hand while playing piano, strings, pads on the rest of the board for live improv.

So as far as the action on the PC3K8 goes, how is it compared to the Yamaha's and the Kronos? If it's lighter but fast as the Yamaha S90 ES that's fine. I prefer a bit lighter actions on 88's anyway.

Any tips would be great!

Thanks!

[Dave B]

I have a Kronos 73, which I believe is the same keybed as the 88, and that feels about the same as my old PC3K8. If anything, I'd say that the K had a little more zip in the key return but that could just be me being misty eyed a bit (I also prefer the lighter shade of weighted keys).

Interesting thread to resurrect after 5 years. If someone were to post the same thing today, my heart would say go Kurzweil, but my head would say Roland RD2000. If you are already using a Mac / Mainstage (or Win equivalent), then the RD must be a no brainer for fast setup / turnaround. It's totally geared up for being a hybrid system. I know things like the Kronos can do that, but the RD looks so immediate. I must have a bash some time.

[Dave B]

the Kurzweil has superior live-performance controls based on it's ability to mute, layer, and solo zones.

Worth mentioning here that the Kronos _can_ do this kind of stuff. I didn't realise it until I saw reference to 'scenes' in Karma which allows you to set up various combinations of zones in the Combi and then toggle between different sets. Very nice.

[jamescrist]

I have a Kronos 73, which I believe is the same keybed as the 88, and that feels about the same as my old PC3K8. If anything, I'd say that the K had a little more zip in the key return but that could just be me being misty eyed a bit (I also prefer the lighter shade of weighted keys).

Interesting thread to resurrect after 5 years. If someone were to post the same thing today, my heart would say go Kurzweil, but my head would say Roland RD2000. If you are already using a Mac / Mainstage (or Win equivalent), then the RD must be a no brainer for fast setup / turnaround. It's totally geared up for being a hybrid system. I know things like the Kronos can do that, but the RD looks so immediate. I must have a bash some time.

Thanks Dave. I'll go to Sam Ash (SMASH) today and try out the Kronos and the RD2000. From what I remember the RD still "hiccups" when switching patches. I don't know WHY all manufacturers do not have the smooth transition like Kurz and Kronos.

For years I played the Ensoniqs. The TS-10 was the last. It had the smooth transition between patches as well and I loved the ability to layer percussion and drums at will and play them live. I know the PC3K8 can do this on steroids.

BTW - How's the PC3K8 as a midi controller in your DAW (if you have a DAW and used it for this). Can it be used to control your parameters on VST synths and plugs via Midi CC?

[Dave B]

James ... Ensoniq TS12 ..... be still my beating heart. I _so_ loved that board. I may even have had a couple of them and have been seriously tempted to pick one up cheap over the last few years. But my head overruled my heart. Still ... I did love it to bits.

Just thinking about it .. I've had a few Ensoniqs : ESQ1, EPS16+, another ESQ1, EPS16+rack, TS12, VFX ... all etched into my heart.

Not sure about controlling DAW from Kurz - never tried it. Sorry.

Annoying if the RD does that ... grrr ... please confirm and let us know.

Right - I'm off to ebay ... e n s o ... oooh ....

[Blott]

This all got me thinking. Why am I carting around so much gear? Surely, I can achieve what I do with one really good keyboard. I could convert the files on my Mac to .wavs and run them as audio tracks on a good workstation. And with a bit of 'clever' work on patch changes etc... I should be able to get away with just one 88 note workstation.

Less gear to carry around + less time to soundcheck = More time to play. Not forgetting my studio at home would look a lot neater which gives me a happy wife!!!!!

Does it have to be a flagship instrument?

You could easily achieve what you are suggesting as a solution on a Roland Fa-08, which is about the third of the price of the Kronos.

Also, it's about a third of the weight too!!!!

I exaggerate for effect, but it truthfully is MUCH lighter than most 88 note keyboards, which is always important for the gigging musician - after all your back is priceless.

It's not as well built as the other synths you've mentioned, but it's strong enough and as it's much lighter, it is much less prone to being dropped anyway!!!

It's 'hammer action' is definitely on the light side, but it has a nice bright screen and Roland's SuperNaturalSynth sounds are very nice too, so taking into account the low weight and the low price tag and your familiarity with Roland gear, it might be worth considering.

[jamescrist]

If anything, I'd say that the K had a little more zip in the key return keys).

You mean the Kurz had more zip correct?

[Dave B]

Sorry - yes, the Kurzweil...

[Scramble]

Blott, Guido3 was posting from five years ago, so I don't think he's still looking, but for James Crist's sake I agree with you on the Roland FA-08. It's cheaper and lighter than the RD-2000, but sounds great, with an awful lot of sounds, including Supernatural pianos, all the Supernatural synths, and all the old XV-5080 sounds. Very fast boot-up time. Has 16 pads which can be assigned to mute parts, or to play samples, etc.

Thanks to the latest v2.0 OS you can now set the pad mode for each Studio Set (Studio Sets are what Roland call patches/combis on the FAs), so on one song the pads can be set to play samples, on another they can be used to mute parts, or partials, or to move between parts.

[The Elf]

BTW - How's the PC3K8 as a midi controller in your DAW (if you have a DAW and used it for this). Can it be used to control your parameters on VST synths and plugs via Midi CC?

Yes, it can. The K and PC workstations are very generously endowed with control options. It's one of the reasons why I've fallen in love with the PC3K7 - the breath controller input and on-board faders are superb for programming orchestral parts.

[jamescrist]

Which one has the best action? PC3K8 or the Motif?

Thanks!

[The Elf]

I'll have to leave others to answer that. I detest weighted keyboards!

[Dave B]

Elf : I actually have the ribbon controller knocking about somewhere. You want to give that a punt?

James : 'Best' is a really subjective thing. We can argue about that all day

Best action is the one that you prefer. Sorry, you do have to nip down to your local store and have a bash.

(Unless someone offers you a fully functional Roland RD1000 from the 80s. That really was the best keyboard action I've ever come across)

[The Elf]

Elf : I actually have the ribbon controller knocking about somewhere. You want to give that a punt?

I did miss the long ribbon from my old K2600, I admit, but I have become more organised about my allocation of the PC3's on-board faders.

What gorgeous machines the PC3s are - I'm glad I'm back!