Is there an audiophile's MP3 player?

[The_BPP]

I know it's not really music recording, as such, but you good people know your onions when it comes to sound quality...

I've tried an iPod touch (with an upgraded pair of earphones), and frankly, it was rubbish - talk about style over content (at least in the sound stakes).

Is there an mp3 player with excellent sound quality? Maybe something with a large capacity that will play lossless formats? I don't need the internet, or any fancy GUI, just excellent sound.

Thanks for your help.

P.S. Apparently, Steve Jobs is a bit under-the-weather at the moment, so that is at least some comfort. Only kidding! It's no comfort at all.

[ken long]

There was a few media reviews in the papers and a big marketing campaign for Sony's new X-series Walkman a few weeks back.

http://www.sony.co.uk/product/nws-x-series/nwz-x1050

I'm not familiar with any of the proprietary technology used on it and haven't tried it. Seems like the headphones are noise cancelling though this won't have an effect on the sound quality.

ken

[Nat JM]

Do you plan on buying downloads? In this case, you first have to select where to buy downloads from by listening to the different available formats on your computer and picking the best to your ears, then you can start looking for a MP3 player that can play those.

I've got a Creative Vision M and my partner has got a Creative Zen V and we're both converts, they're much better than the iPod, both in terms of sound and stability. However, the sound you get from them is not comparable to what you can get from good speakers hooked to your computer (with a good soundcard).

[The_BPP]

Do you plan on buying downloads? In this case, you first have to select where to buy downloads from by listening to the different available formats on your computer and picking the best to your ears, then you can start looking for a MP3 player that can play those.

I've got a Creative Vision M and my partner has got a Creative Zen V and we're both converts, they're much better than the iPod, both in terms of sound and stability. However, the sound you get from them is not comparable to what you can get from good speakers hooked to your computer (with a good soundcard).

I actually buy from itunes, but theres no protection on their downloads, these days, still, native AAC support would be handy. I checked and then new Sony does do that. Thanks, Ken!

[tant]

I have a couple of ipods and have everything as WAVs or AIF or AAC.

And i use either my Sennheiser HD650 or some quite expensive shure in-ear things..

Sounds pretty good to me.

Even when i have plugged into some decent monitors or hi-fi's.

I think its the type of files you use that is important not the player so much.

[The_BPP]

Honestly, I listened to the iPod objectively with no negative preconceptions, and I like to think I've good ears. On several tracks, of different genres, some of which were wav, some were aac (both formats should sound superior to mp3) it just didn't sound as expensive as the player looked. Certainly, compared to using an average hi-fi headphone amp, the iPod was found wanting.

What I want is something that sounds comparable to using my earphones with a hi-fi amp. That ain't the iPod.

[tant]

Yes but you are not going to find something that can fit in your pocket that will sound like that are you? Really?

But if i am wrong and you find something then tell me i will be buying one straight away..

[Kwackman]

Just before you abandon the iPod, check the settings to see if any of the "enhanced" sound options have been turned on.

[John Willett]

No MP3 can be "audiophile" - but a player with uncompressed wav or lossless FLAC can be very good - especially if you use a Graham Slee Voyager to power the headphones.

[The_BPP]

Yes but you are not going to find something that can fit in your pocket that will sound like that are you? Really?

But if i am wrong and you find something then tell me i will be buying one straight away..

I was rather hoping I would. Modern technology being what it is. I don't expect the volume levels of my home hi-fi, just the quality.

[ken long]

All fair points. There's also the issue of the EU limiter or something rather on the iPod. It can be bypassed internally. The headphone can be fed straight from the DAC. This makes a world of difference I've been told but as I don't use any portable music devices, I couldn't say.

ken

[Neo-Classical Guitar Man]

I like my old Mitac Mio 168 Pocket PC which sounds excellent and works great. There are many different players out there for it, all with differing features and sound quality, i.e. the EQ sections sound better on some than others. There is even an iPod clone complete with dial icon on screen that you move via the touch screen . One or two Winamp clones exist too. Another nice thing is that if it has WiFi, you can connect to a NAS home server with music on and stream to your Pocket PC.

Anyway even the most basic Pocket PC will make a good portable player and can be bought very cheaply, anything up to £20 or £30 on average from Ebay, occasionally you will find ones for £5 that are in good condition. The older ones like mine (circa 2004) take 2GB SD cards max, but models in the last three years take 4GB and higher.

NCGM

[ken long]

No MP3 can be "audiophile" - but a player with uncompressed wav or lossless FLAC can be very good - especially if you use a Graham Slee Voyager to power the headphones.

Honestly, John! That thing is as big as the player itself!



ken

[The_BPP]

No MP3 can be "audiophile" - but a player with uncompressed wav or lossless FLAC can be very good - especially if you use a Graham Slee Voyager to power the headphones.

I wasn't planning on using the mp3 format, as such. I appreciate there will be an element of compromise, so I would prefer to use the onboard headphone amp - a seperate amp isn't exactly an elegant, portable solution.

[tant]

Hey the Voyager Portable Headphone Amplifier posted above is looking more like it..

I think my cheque might be in the post..

Quite a useful little thing to have also..

[The_BPP]

I've just done a bit of homework, and the Cowon S9 looks good, with good comments on sound quality, plus FLAC and OGG support. Any experiences of Cowon?

[Dave H]

I have owned an Ipod for about 2 years now. The sound quality really depends on what you put in to it. If you convert CDs to Apple Lossless they sound pretty good. If you download from Itunes they sopund pretty bad, if you convert to the highest possible mp3 from CD they sound pretty bad. Keep the EQ settings flat, everything else just sounds overhyped in some way or another.

Although I probably am an audiopihle, I didn't buy it to be an 'audiophile' device, I bought it to listen to my music on the go (isn't that what they are for anyway?). The stock headphones are pants to say the least, I have a set of Sennheiser CX300s which dont break the bank but are decent. Believe me, if you buy an Ipod and these headphones (or any other half decent set) and convert everything to lossless from cd you will not be left in a cold digitised shudder.

I think the device you are looking for probably wont exist for a good few years yet.

[The_BPP]

I have owned an Ipod for about 2 years now. The sound quality really depends on what you put in to it. If you convert CDs to Apple Lossless they sound pretty good. If you download from Itunes they sopund pretty bad, if you convert to the highest possible mp3 from CD they sound pretty bad. Keep the EQ settings flat, everything else just sounds overhyped in some way or another.

Although I probably am an audiopihle, I didn't buy it to be an 'audiophile' device, I bought it to listen to my music on the go (isn't that what they are for anyway?). The stock headphones are pants to say the least, I have a set of Sennheiser CX300s which dont break the bank but are decent. Believe me, if you buy an Ipod and these headphones (or any other half decent set) and convert everything to lossless from cd you will not be left in a cold digitised shudder.

I think the device you are looking for probably wont exist for a good few years yet.

I'm not an ipod basher, by any means. I fully expected to like the sound. I listened to several songs in .WAV format, which, presumably, is the about as good as it should get. The EQ was flat, but I did play with it a bit, too. I used some philips earphones (they cost around £60, so midrange), that I've used with my PCs onboard sound card, so I know what they sound like. I thought the iPod had a slightly brittle top-end, compared to my PC's inbuilt sound, which, lets face it, probably wasn't built with quality in mind. It was a disappointing experience.

[ken long]

I wasn't planning on using the mp3 format

That's what I understood.

I did own a first gen iPod and but the battery quickly ran down - after about a year of using it once a month? It was slim but the OS was terrible, though revolutionary at the time I remember. I also won a first gen Nano years later. That time, the battery lasted 6 months. So I'm not impressed with any of them overall. I've used an iPhone and that looks pretty. But I don't see the need for internet access on the go... on my PHONE!

As for the sound, it was never amazing but its aimed at people who want to cram as much as they can in there. People who want to shuffle 2 million songs during their commute on the Central line. For that, MP3 is ergonomic and when you consider the inherent noise of 'listening on the go', at a healthy level it really shouldn't matter too much. That said, I've only ever used uncompressed audio on these kind of devices. The first iPod was 5GB IIRC. Still remarkable at the time.

My colleague has a Zen and loves it too. He can easily replace the drive and it reads many formats and can be used as a (temporary) storage device.

ken

[The_BPP]

Well, after a lot of web searching, Ken, my search seems to be a toss-up between the cowon s9 and the walkman x series. They both have excellent reviews on sound quality. I won't be listening on the train, just in my office, where ambient noise isn't a problem, but sound quality is.

[The Elf]

I have no complaints with my Archos (605 - I've been through the range over the years)) player. It has the added advantage of being able to take your TV recordings and photos around with you and also play DVD files natively too (with the optional Cinema plug-in). An iPod would feel like a huge backwards step to me.

[onesecondglance]

my wife has an ipod, i have a Creative Zen, and before that i had a Sony mp3 Walkman. i've listened to 192kbps mp3 on all three devices through the same Bose in-ear headphones, and the Sony was the best sound quality, with the Zen next and the ipod straight last. iRiver were meant to be great a few years back - i remember the original models even featured line-in so you could record - but all of their recent models have been tiny 1GB jobbies.

the only reason i didn't go for Sony again when i needed to replace my old Walkman was because they didn't do a model with enough storage - at the time 8GB was the maximum, whereas i wanted 32GB. the Zen i got provides that and is the size of a credit card (!). a useful site is anything but ipod, if you haven't already found it.

one word of advice - if any of the players offer "EQ" settings, such as treble or bass boosts (i use the quote marks deliberately) just straight off avoid them. i'm sure you would anyway, but they are universally terrible - they're just a hopeless attempt to compensate for the rubbish earphones they usually supply with the things.

John gives good advice above though about running a headphone amplifier - most portable devices simply can't drive good closed back headphones. the Sennheisers that i use for mixing and recording sound thin and very, very quiet as there's just not enough signal - the players are designed to drive earbuds and that's pretty much it.

[Shivanand]

iRiver were meant to be great a few years back - i remember the original models even featured line-in so you could record - but all of their recent models have been tiny 1GB jobbies.

I have an iRiver which has served me well for some years. It's a bit clunky and large by today's standards but I bought it for its sound and the fact that it plays .wav files, has analogue and digital line I/O and (still) manages 16 hours or so on a charge even though it uses a hard disk for storage. It sounds as good as the cans you listen with and has no trouble driving my Grado SR-80 or Sony MDR-7509 headphones.

[The_BPP]

Thanks for your advice, guys.

I nearly went for the sony walkman, but it has things such as noise-cancellation which I'd never use. I did think about getting an archos, as I'd heard good things (thanks elf) but it's a bit chunkier than I'd want, to be honest - I'd like to put it in my pocket and forget about it.

After much um-ing and ah-ing, I've decided to plump for the cowon s9, 32gb. About as good-sounding as a stand-alone mp3 player gets, by all accounts. It's £250 so it had better sound as good as the reviews claim!

I'll let you know how I get on.

[Hugh Robjohns]

What I want is something that sounds comparable to using my earphones with a hi-fi amp. That ain't the iPod.

It won't be anything portable with a low voltage battery. The physics just doesn't allow it.

The internal working voltages and the inherently restricted current flow necessary to maintain a decent battery life in something that has to be ultra compact make getting any kind of high quality headphone monitoring impossible. Peak power is limited, slew rates are limited, and you just can't achieve the same kind of performance that you could from a mains-powered headphone amp.

Hugh