Mixing on headphones, why not?

[The Elf]

It's precisely what I do. 80% of my mix in headphones, then a few speaker checks to get the bass balance right. Job done.

If I may ask, why is it you have to get the bass balance right using monitors, is the bass too loud or too soft on headphones compared to listening in a room with monitors?

My conversion to cans was a very slow realisation over a number of years. A big reason was simply to allow me to concentrate while the bands were happily chatting behind me. I eventually found myself doing more and more of the work in cans...

When I first took to doing the actual mix in headphones I found most were bass-light. These days my mixes are either pretty much on the money, or occasionally bass-heavy. I use much, much better cans nowadays, but I suspect it really is just familiarity. I'd actually hate to work only in speakers.

FWIW I get my kick/bass balance by the 'finger on the speaker cone' method. I could still stay in cans!

[Guest]

Can I ask those who mix on headphones, a) do you use crossfeed plugins and b) can you recommend any good ones (preferably free!)

Definitely not. Anything that messes with the raw sound is bad news in my opinion. You really don't need anything like that to get a good mix on cans - just try it and get a feel for it. Between headphones and my car stereo I can get the mix!

Ok cool! By the way I was wondering what headphones you use?

[MGBR65]

It's precisely what I do. 80% of my mix in headphones, then a few speaker checks to get the bass balance right. Job done.

If I may ask, why is it you have to get the bass balance right using monitors, is the bass too loud or too soft on headphones compared to listening in a room with monitors?

My conversion to cans was a very slow realisation over a number of years. A big reason was simply to allow me to concentrate while the bands were happily chatting behind me. I eventually found myself doing more and more of the work in cans...

When I first took to doing the actual mix in headphones I found most were bass-light. These days my mixes are either pretty much on the money, or occasionally bass-heavy. I use much, much better cans nowadays, but I suspect it really is just familiarity. I'd actually hate to work only in speakers.

FWIW I get my kick/bass balance by the 'finger on the speaker cone' method. I could still stay in cans!

So if I understand correctly you have more lows on your headphones than on your monitors?
That's what I have too and I was wondering if that was the way it should be or that my monitor placement was way off.

mgbr

[The Elf]

So if I understand correctly you have more lows on your headphones than on your monitors?
That's what I have too and I was wondering if that was the way it should be or that my monitor placement was way off.

I don't think it's quite that. Certainly, before I discovered the joys of quality headphones I was probably hearing a bass-heavy mix, leading to me mixing bass-shy. These days I use better phones and I'm better at mixing. Who knows?...

[moo the magic cow]

So if I understand correctly you have more lows on your headphones than on your monitors?
That's what I have too and I was wondering if that was the way it should be or that my monitor placement was way off.

mgbr

Not to make a heavy generalization, but headphone bass response is not done well on cheaper headphones. Of the various $20-$50 headphones I've received as gifts, they've gone from not being able to hear the kick, to hearing almost nothing but the kick and bass.

It's a hard thing to get right. If you're not certain of your mix's bass levels, try it on as many systems as you can.

[Guest]

I use Beyerdynamic DT770s (which are pretty good I think) but seeing as this is turning into a more permanent way of working I might have to upgrade to some mentioned in the SOS article, HD650s or K701s

[jayzed]

For me, I'm afraid I just can't seem to feel the music unless I have that rumbling at my diaphram that only large drivers can give. For editing and other technical work a good set of headphones is fine - although I do get jumpy if I can't hear the room around me - but for writing and the final stages of mixing I enjoy myself much more if using speakers, either with a decent extension or a sub. Doesn't mean it can't be done, just that I haven't done it and would prefer to not have to try.

[EnlightenedHand]

...I don't have the "pro" or "perfect" setup or refuse to mix because some "pros" think the results cannot be any good. Hell pro's had to not be pro's at one point so we all just have to getter done. If you want "perfect" mixes then all that high quality stuff matters, but as I always try and remind myself, I make music not for engineers but for fans and listeners, and getting a great mix on headphones is quite easy once you are practiced enough. They have to be checked on other headphones, Monitors, crappy desktop speakers and the car, but it just isn't as hard as some make it out to be.

In a perfect World I would be typing this from a multi million dollar studio with the best of everything, but I think we all know the World is far from perfect.

We all make music for the average listener. But the bottom line for me is that if it sounds good then it IS good. However, as often as it is claimed, I just don't hear enough of the proof in the mixes that I've heard from various headphone advocates to convince me that most people that are using headphones are able to turn in great mixes with them. I for one can mix on headphones. I had to out of necessity a while ago and I got pretty good at it. That being said, it's no easy task at all. The resulting decent mixes don't justify the time and effort required to get it right through cross referencing and second guessing. It's just not worth it to me. It's especially not worth it when one can easily spend $2000 and have a reasonable monitoring system (say ADAM A7 set) and a reasonably treated room and be MUCH further ahead of a headphone mixer in terms of consistency of translation and ease of implementation of the mixing process. It's just a win all around. Headphone mixing requires a load of special consideration that makes it at the very least inefficient, at the most unattainable for most people.

To be clear, I've never said it can't be done. It can and I have done it and heard others do it. I'm saying it's unlikely that most people will ever get to the point that they themselves can do it well enough to compete commercially and they would have a better chance (and an easier time) of quality mixing if done on a decent monitoring system in a decent room.

Liz

[The Elf]

Can I ask those who mix on headphones, a) do you use crossfeed plugins and b) can you recommend any good ones (preferably free!)

Definitely not. Anything that messes with the raw sound is bad news in my opinion. You really don't need anything like that to get a good mix on cans - just try it and get a feel for it. Between headphones and my car stereo I can get the mix!

Ok cool! By the way I was wondering what headphones you use?

AKG K701

[Guest]

Cool - I take it you use a headphone amp, how much would I be looking to spend minimun on one of those

[The Elf]

Cool - I take it you use a headphone amp, how much would I be looking to spend minimun on one of those

No separate headphone amp - straight out of my RME Fireface headphone output.

[Zukan]

One of my students has a poor listening environment in his studio and we talked endlessly about treating the room etc, hell, I even suggested a build for an acoustic enclosure just to get past his bedroom setup.

Budget and the fact that it was his bedroom (missus issue) he had to find an alternative.
I recommended he get the AKG 701s and try to work with them while we went through his sound design classes.

He feels that Nirvana has been attained. He 'hears' everything now, and the cans are good enough for him to conduct rough mixes on and get near the ball park.

Headphones can be a great workaround for poor listening environments and if they are good enough they can even be used for rough mixing guides.

I personally wouldn't rely on them for the mixes I do, but I resolutely use them in conjunction with my monitors in a treated room.

[Martin Walker]

Can I ask those who mix on headphones, a) do you use crossfeed plugins and b) can you recommend any good ones (preferably free!)

Only just noticed your post Imran500.

I discussed crossfeed plug-ins in some depth in my January 2007 feature 'Mixing On Headphones', and mentioned several in there that are freeware:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan07/a ... phones.htm

I spent many hours tweaking the various parameters on the main one I used in that research, attempting to mimic loudspeakers under headphones, and was quite pleased at the results at the time. I found them helpful then, and crossfeed plug-ins are very useful for getting rid of any hard-panned sounds on existing recordings that will only be heard through one ear. This sounds very unnatural to most people, and can even cause headaches and induce nausea over prolonged periods.

However, since then I've found myself using them less ad less, and nowadays not at all for my own mixes. While they are great for improving odd-sounding commercial tracks that weren't recorded with headphones in mind, I feel it's more important to make sure your own mixes sound good on both headphones and loudspeakers.

When positioning your instruments in the stereo headphone field, you just need a little practice to get used to the fact that they will sound further apart here than on speakers. Many musicians have a set of pan-control starting points that they always use with loudspeakers, such as central, quarter, half or full pan in each direction, and you can use exactly the same guideline positions as headphone mix starting points (just relaxing the full pan settings slightly) until you adapt to the different width.

Martin

[The Elf]

When positioning your instruments in the stereo headphone field, you just need a little practice to get used to the fact that they will sound further apart here than on speakers.

I'll turn a vice into a virtue by saying that mixing in cans actually makes me question and tune my panning a lot more. Those 20-feet wide drum kits and 'head inside the piano' moments are instantly obvious in phones. You can also spot the 'wide mono' trap.

It also helps to ensure you think about some ambience for tracks that you are panning wide, because dry sounds hard panned often feel uncomfortably lonely and need something happening in the rest of the stereo field to pull them into the mix. I find that the decisions I make due to the above translate to a mix that gels together better in speakers. I often come out of the cans, bring up the speakers and have a 'wow!' moment!

Whilst I agree that you need to get out into speakers at some point, I honestly can get most of the way there in cans - maybe I *am* unusual in this (I hadn't really questioned it to be honest!), but it certainly works for me and the artists I work with.

It's not for everyone, but if it becomes a necessity you can not only make it work, but make it work very well indeed in my experience.

[jayzed]

Damn, I've been using the 'can't work on headphones' excuse for making noise to my wife for years at home! If she reads this then I'll only be allowed to use my monitors as a sanity check!
But seriously, I think I should be doing a bit more than a cursory click and crackle test on cans. When using them I really don't pay enough attention to the expanded stereo field to make decisions in that area and it certainly makes sense to do so.

[Martin Walker]

It also helps to ensure you think about some ambience for tracks that you are panning wide, because dry sounds hard panned often feel uncomfortably lonely and need something happening in the rest of the stereo field to pull them into the mix. I find that the decisions I make due to the above translate to a mix that gels together better in speakers. I often come out of the cans, bring up the speakers and have a 'wow!' moment!

Exactly my experience as well - as long as you get used to how differently mixes will sound under headphones, expect to make them wider but avoid those disorientating 'sound in one ear only' issues, getting a mix to work well in headphones CAN result in an even better loudspeaker experience when you double check in the real world.

Whilst I agree that you need to get out into speakers at some point, I honestly can get most of the way there in cans - maybe I *am* unusual in this (I hadn't really questioned it to be honest!), but it certainly works for me and the artists I work with

I'm exactly the same. Just get used to your headphones, do reality checks occasionally, and practice.

We really have to make mixes that sound good on cans as well as loudspeakers nowadays, since so many people listen that way.

Martin

[chris...]

Those 20-feet wide drum kits

IMHO, if done well, those 20-foot wide drum kits can sound great.

Anyway, if the keyboard player can have his synth panned hugely wide in stereo, then why not my drums...

I come at this from a perspective of attempting to use the toys to create something interesting. Obviously if I was going for a realistic acoustic sound, things would be different.

[Guest]

Can I ask those who mix on headphones, a) do you use crossfeed plugins and b) can you recommend any good ones (preferably free!)

Only just noticed your post Imran500.

I discussed crossfeed plug-ins in some depth in my January 2007 feature 'Mixing On Headphones', and mentioned several in there that are freeware:

<a href="/sos/jan07/articles/mixingheadphones.htm" target="_blank">www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan07/articles ... nes.htm</a>

I spent many hours tweaking the various parameters on the main one I used in that research, attempting to mimic loudspeakers under headphones, and was quite pleased at the results at the time. I found them helpful then, and crossfeed plug-ins are very useful for getting rid of any hard-panned sounds on existing recordings that will only be heard through one ear. This sounds very unnatural to most people, and can even cause headaches and induce nausea over prolonged periods.

However, since then I've found myself using them less ad less, and nowadays not at all for my own mixes. While they are great for improving odd-sounding commercial tracks that weren't recorded with headphones in mind, I feel it's more important to make sure your own mixes sound good on both headphones and loudspeakers.

When positioning your instruments in the stereo headphone field, you just need a little practice to get used to the fact that they will sound further apart here than on speakers. Many musicians have a set of pan-control starting points that they always use with loudspeakers, such as central, quarter, half or full pan in each direction, and you can use exactly the same guideline positions as headphone mix starting points (just relaxing the full pan settings slightly) until you adapt to the different width.

Martin

Oops sorry forgot to mention that your link for the free one had died which is why I was asking - I had read about those in your article!

[Zukan]

When positioning your instruments in the stereo headphone field, you just need a little practice to get used to the fact that they will sound further apart here than on speakers.

I'll turn a vice into a virtue by saying that mixing in cans actually makes me question and tune my panning a lot more. Those 20-feet wide drum kits and 'head inside the piano' moments are instantly obvious in phones. You can also spot the 'wide mono' trap.

It also helps to ensure you think about some ambience for tracks that you are panning wide, because dry sounds hard panned often feel uncomfortably lonely and need something happening in the rest of the stereo field to pull them into the mix. I find that the decisions I make due to the above translate to a mix that gels together better in speakers. I often come out of the cans, bring up the speakers and have a 'wow!' moment!

Whilst I agree that you need to get out into speakers at some point, I honestly can get most of the way there in cans - maybe I *am* unusual in this (I hadn't really questioned it to be honest!), but it certainly works for me and the artists I work with.

It's not for everyone, but if it becomes a necessity you can not only make it work, but make it work very well indeed in my experience.

Indeed. And add reverb tails into the equation.
This often confuses people even more than low energy and pan issues.

[Martin Walker]

Oops sorry forgot to mention that your link for the free one had died which is why I was asking - I had read about those in your article!

Hi Imran500!

Here's another free crossfeed plug-in for you (the catchily-named HDPHX ):

http://refinedaudiometrics.com/products-hdphx.shtml

It works well and doesn't need any fiddly setting up to suit your particular ears - you really can just plug it in and play through it, as I discussed in my September 2007 PC Notes column:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep07/a ... s_0907.htm

Martin

[giomasino]

My first post here. GREAT forum, by the way.
For all those mixing on headphones, I strongly recommend a small, cheap, totally amazing plugin called Isone. I tried other similar plugs (redline monitor, hdpx) and didn't like them at all, but this one literally blew me away.

Find it here:
http://www.jeroenbreebaart.com/audio_vst_isone_pro.htm

It totally changed my perspective about mixing on headphones.

I also look forward to try the VRM technology by Focusrite (see the new Saffire 24 pro dsp). Hope to see a review on SOS about it ...

G.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I've just written the Pro24 DSP review, concentrating on the VRM technology.

It certainly does work pretty well, and is a huge step up from normal headphone monitoring, and a useful improvement on the typical cross-feed headphone systems too.

I was a little disappointed with the range of simulated speakers and environments on offer... which are essentially typical bedroom or small project studio fodder. That seems to me to be a lost opportunity as I was expecting to be transported to a superb acoustic environment with superb full range speakers, rather than a small bedroom with small two-way budget monitors.

But to be fair this is a proof-of-concept product and there are plans to develop it much further in future products -- and that bodes well.

hugh

[Guest]

Oops sorry forgot to mention that your link for the free one had died which is why I was asking - I had read about those in your article!

Hi Imran500!

Here's another free crossfeed plug-in for you (the catchily-named HDPHX ):

http://refinedaudiometrics.com/products-hdphx.shtml

It works well and doesn't need any fiddly setting up to suit your particular ears - you really can just plug it in and play through it, as I discussed in my September 2007 PC Notes column:

www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep07/articles ... s_0907.htm

Martin

Thanks!

I've just written the Pro24 DSP review, concentrating on the VRM technology.

It certainly does work pretty well, and is a huge step up from normal headphone monitoring, and a useful improvement on the typical cross-feed headphone systems too.

I was a little disappointed with the range of simulated speakers and environments on offer... which are essentially typical bedroom or small project studio fodder. That seems to me to be a lost opportunity as I was expecting to be transported to a superb acoustic environment with superb full range speakers, rather than a small bedroom with small two-way budget monitors.

But to be fair this is a proof-of-concept product and there are plans to develop it much further in future products -- and that bodes well.

hugh

Damn that would have been so cool for us headphone mixers if they'd simulated pro-environments!

I'm in the market for a new audio interface as well

[Martin Walker]

My first post here. GREAT forum, by the way.
For all those mixing on headphones, I strongly recommend a small, cheap, totally amazing plugin called Isone. I tried other similar plugs (redline monitor, hdpx) and didn't like them at all, but this one literally blew me away.

Find it here:
http://www.jeroenbreebaart.com/audio_vst_isone_pro.htm

It totally changed my perspective about mixing on headphones.

Hi giomasino, and welcome to the SOS Forums!

Thanks also for that link - I've always been impressed by Jeroen Breebaart's plug-ins, but I hadn't noticed that one before.

Martin

[giomasino]

Thanks Hugh, I really look forward to read your review. I'm considering buying the product, but there's no serious reviews around yet, so I REALLY look forward to yours ... ehm ... maybe I'm asking too much, but .. .. could you give us a very brief anticipation of your overall impression (sound quality especially - apart from VRM)? Thumbs up or down?
Thanks G.