Producing electronic dance music using ready-made 'loop packs' - Cheating?

[Pete Kaine]

And by the way, I don't know my grime from my grindy:

First one's your likely to get stabbed at a gig and the second one has guitars and a ubertrendy as you like Nathen Barley crowd. In most cases I wish they could combine the two.

[tomafd]

And Ken, everything's rehashed to some degree, but I think there was definitely something a bit fresh about jungle when it first grew out of hardcore.

Cheers!

Chris

Yup, watching Lock Stock & 2 smoking barrels the other night I was reminded of that EZ Rollers tune Walk the land (I think it's called) Must be from 1998 ? 99 ? Totally wicked, totally fresh, and just so funky. I don't pay that much attention these days but I'm not hearing anything with that kind of freshness and sheer joy these days, when I am trawling through today's dance music.

[onesecondglance]

grindy

grindcode indie? now that would be worth hearing...

genres are just tags. they help people see patterns in something abstract (music). it's the same thing as naming colours - that could mean a million different chroma but say that something is red and everyone will know what you mean.

it always annoys me when bands say they don't like to be put into a genre. if it helps someone else get an handle on what you are, i say great. being classed in a genre by a journalist doesn't define what you should write as a musician!

[Michael Dow]

Im sorry but i find a lot of the comments here rather mis/ill informed. Just because you dont like a style doesnt mean it is any less or more creative than the ones that you do like. It's just that you don't understand the way in which it's creative as you have no reference. Just your "boom tssh" comments.

One could say something similar about all style of music. The very basis of a style of a track is usually to do with its beat/rhythm. Ska all has a very similar beat, lots of indie music has the same kind of beat. Just cos its on real drums doesnt make it any less repetative.

Seriously some of the comments on here are so narrow minded!

[Michael Dow]

grindy

being classed in a genre by a journalist doesn't define what you should write as a musician!

Well said!

[FutureRetro]

lots of indie music has the same kind of beat. Just cos its on real drums doesnt make it any less repetative.

There repetative and then there is actual repetition. A musician can inject life into a performance, they can play with solos, two performances will never be the same etc. Most electronic music doesn't have this creativity. Not to say it cannot be done, it just isn't generally and certainly not in the more popular forms of electronic music.

[Michael Dow]

This is true yes, but thats what club music is about. It's always been about that since detroit techno. Something to get lost inside. A groove that binds the rest of the track together.

I guess some people get it and some do not. And those that don't think it's childish and un thoughtful as a whole.

But.. talking of unthoughtful production.... using just sample packs isn;t great. Yet as we see, it works for those that it matters to. The people dancing to it.

[The Elf]

Of course, it's your prerogative to dismiss what you dislike or don't have time to investigate! As long as you don't mind sounding like a grumpy old sod!

If I had to investigate every musical style I *don't* like I wouldn't have to time to find out about stuff I *do*!

To each their own, dude - but please don't take me too seriously...

[KNB]

Didn't the Pied Piper's number one "Do you Really Like It"
use the demo song from an EMU module?

what? Seriously??!

It was a proteus! I remember finding that loop on it and thinking that it was a bit cheap. Still it was a pretty cool loop

[KNB]

Dj Shadow - Entroducing

Multi award winning and listed in the top 100 albums by a publication no more mainstream, middle of the road than "Time" magazine.

100% samples.

All he's done in effect is go out and find samples and build them into tracks.

Loop cd's surely all your doing is skipping a certain amount of finding the loops?

This is surely a totally different point.

[KNB]

trip hop... dubstep...

Wha?

Trip Hop is white dad friendly hip hop without so much talking.

DubStep is 130 bpm garage with the same wobbley bass sound in each track...



(no doubt that'll offend/confuse some teenagers!)

Dubstep is half speed

[KNB]

Been thinking about this for a few days now...

I an a House music DJ by trade, but for a year or so now I have enjoyed a hobby of actually producing house music tracks of my own.

I use Ableton, a few software plugins, I have several new and old external hardware synths, outboard effects units, compressors, Midi Keyboard and synth keyboards, and I sometimes sample from old records and CD's.

I quite like making every part of my tracks from nothing. I like programming and EQing the drums, building the basslines and melodies, tweaking the outboard Synths and generally going through the whole process.

A few months ago however, Some friends of mine who are also DJ's/Producers got a Tech/Electro house track that they had made into the Beatport top 100. Nice work.

The track was really quite good, and certainly worth a purchase and a play for a few weeks by Tech/Electro DJ's.

Now, these guys aren't what you would call patient or technically minded. So, I saw them one day and we got chatting 'producer to producer' and I asked them how they crafted their nice little track. What soft synths do they have? What hardware synths do they use? Which drum programme do they prefer? etc.

The answer was: "Easy mate, We just downloaded a few of those big producer loop pack things and listened to hundreds of drum loops, melodies, pianos, FX, basslines etc until we came across a load we liked, pasted them into Ableton's audio tracks in blocks, added a few fades here and there to the tracks, few FX, built a couple of breakdowns using the 'breakdown loops' provided with the packs and bingo, decent banging track in a few days"

Now... I dont know whether to be impressed by them for being so resourceful of the tools that are now available in these Loop Packs, or whether to be disgusted that all they did was basically copy and paste perfect ready made sounds into tracks!

Or, should I be mad at myself for always spending hours and hours trying to home create drums loops, melodies, and basslines when I could just be auditioning a few hundred with a click of the mouse till one perfect one pops up out of these loop packs?

I went home, downloaded a couple of well known house music 'Loop packs' from the big names of this kind of thing. auditioned a few samples and loops for about 20 mins and then started banging the ones I liked into Ableton and guess what...within about 2 hours I had basically crafed a really funky little house track with some great drums, basslines, melodies, and complete with soulful and fruity horn and saxophone sounds. Amazing.

I'm not saying I'm converted... but it's really playing on my mind and irritating me...

And obviously the same applies to nearly all genre's now as well. Hip Hop, Dubstep, RnB, Soul, Pop... there are seemingly Loop Packs available for everyone.

So.. whats your opinions on all of this?

Loop Packs: "Great! they make producing electronic music really fun and easy, and with so many thousand loops and sounds available, its unlikely my professional sounding track will end up remotely like anyone elses! They allow you to create tracks you like the sound of without knowing anything about music which is fantastic."

Or somthing along the lines of...

Loop Packs: "Rubbish. Its basically a modern day version of Dance eJay! any idiot can knock a track up in an hour using someone elses hard work. Its like building a track from a Lego kit with instructions. If everyone did this and got their stuff published, all the tracks we hear would contain exactly the same basslines, drums and melodies."

I dont know what to think? Its cool, but somehow feels a bit lame at the same time... I wonder how many of the actual published 'chart' and club dance music out there was made either partially or in whole by using purchased royalty free loop packs?

Either way... My friends sold hundreds of copies of their track on a well known music website and I haven't!

Sometimes I use loops in productions with a bunch of effects on them, perhaps just for rhythmic high end. I'd never just 'use' a loop that I found to form the basis of a track, but I totally get that that is what most dance producers too.

When I was at university I gave some tracks to a well known dance production outfit and asked what their advice was (back in the day) and there reply was 'Listen to a dance track you like, rip off the beat, try to use the same sounds, follow the structure'. I actually lost a lot of respect for them....

It's sad that music is getting to the point where it is just being re-hashed in various guises. Still... has anyone read The 17

[jellyjim]

their approach might create content or let's be frank about it, product, but will it make art? i think not

[vinyl_junkie]

their approach might create content or let's be frank about it, product, but will it make art? i think not

To simply put it..thats it! Spunkin' tracks up on a wall to fill a space and make some quick cash/cashing in but huring the sceene.
Those artist/genre sample cd's are awfull imo..sound like "xx" in one click...nice!

No art or culture to it, what Shadow did on his first album is totaly different.. His passion, the digging involved, the fact that he only used this old MPC60, ADAT and a SL-1200 and the quality of the music sampled...it introduced guys from hip hop to the likes of Tangerine Dream for example.

[The Pearl Works]

Who remembers the "Amen" break?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SaFTm2bcac

[vinyl_junkie]

Who remembers the "Amen" break?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SaFTm2bcac

Hell yea

How many jungle tunes did that spawn off

U seen this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyKuzY52hWU

[The Pearl Works]

yeah...but you seen this one too?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96PfTcGHZ4Q

I wouldn't let my cat live in that dustbin he calls a "residential studio"!

[The Korff]

I reckon Remarc pretty much took that break to the extreme around 93 - 94. People have certainly taken it faster than that, but I don't reckon they've pushed it further since then (and I don't think it gets any better beyond around 160bpm either!).

I think NWA rinsed it on one of their tracks too, didn't they?

[vinyl_junkie]

yeah...but you seen this one too?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96PfTcGHZ4Q

I wouldn't let my cat live in that dustbin he calls a "residential studio"!

Yea lol the room I have the studio gear in looks like that hahah
I found the Sourcedirect vid funny when he does his headphone thing

[Grandmasterbird]

@ the original post-

I guess it's up to the individual(s) sitting down to make the music. If a track is good then it's good and where the elements come from doesnt really matter too much.

What I will say though is if everyone just used pre made loops and didnt create anything original then the scene would stagnate very quickly. Originality and fresh ideas help push things forward.

For me personally, using pre made loops would defeat the whole object of why I make tracks and I would get bored very quickly.....

[Michael Dow]

Dub Step is usually mad at 140bpm. You dance to the halfbeat and it seems half the speed but its actually made at or around 140 most of the time

[Badeshi]

Talking about sampling in general is missing the point. These aren't dusty snippits of old songs processed and chopped into something new these are 'paint by numbers' house beat A etc.

These is a great art in sampling and editing audio into something new, as we see with DJ Shadow. But to liken this to using ready made loops is a disservice.

Yeah maybe its the same as using presets on synths and FX and the artistic argument is there. It is still a skill to choose what goes together and will fit, but in my opinion it does not take anywhere near the same of skill and perseverance as having a sound in your head and then trying to make it/.....

[Wizard Moon Chopper]

Yes it is cheating. But you won't be cheating your audience, you'll be cheating yourself.

[biczmusic]

Yes it is cheating. But you won't be cheating your audience, you'll be cheating yourself.

Exactly.

Ultimately, isn't it about what public is interested in??

When I do my stuff I try to be original as much as possible - my own drum loops, basses, etc.
When I do stuff for people I just listen what they want I get there by easiest means - if they like it, my job is done.

Maybe we should ask question - why people allow for so much poor production to come out and to be successful.
I mean all those old remarks, but with different sounds, naked women in the video, and mega bass.

And they sell millions of records worldwide.

It is and always will be - who you want to sell your music to!!

I say do what you feel right now, but thing about your feelings later.

(buhaha)

[Aled Hughes]

There repetative and then there is actual repetition. A musician can inject life into a performance, they can play with solos, two performances will never be the same etc.

All of which all too often makes the music duller. Most of the time I don't want to hear a musician 'expressing themself'. A lot of the time, I believe the expression should be in the composition, and the performance should follow that. If a musician is paid to do a job, they should play what is asked of them!

Obviously, there are exceptions, such as styles based around improvisations rather than pre-defined compositions, or when the composer is also the main performer.

Just because somebody might feel the music is less "organic" (in terms of human interaction - which in itself is a debatable point) does not mean it's any less valid. I'm with Michael Dow on this one - I find most indie/rock stuff just as bland and boring as most mainstream dance stuff. That's not to mean there aren't wonderful music in those style, just as there is in any musical genre you wish to mention.