ALCHEMEA, LONDON SCHOOL OF SOUND OR POINT BLANK?

[master_star]

HI GUYS, WHAT'S UP? I AM GEORGE I AM FROM GEORGIA (REPUBLIC OF GEORGIA) FIRST SORRY FOR MY ENGLISH... I DECIDE TO LEARN MUSIC PRODUCTION (MASTERING, MIXING AND ALL THAT THINGS) I WANT TO TAKE ONE YEAR COURSE PROGRAMS IN LONDON, WELL I READ ABOUT SAE TOO BUT MANY PEOPLE ARE DISAPPOINTED IN IT AS I KNOW... I LIKED ALCHEMEA BECAUSE I READ THAT THEY GIVE YOU MAC BOOK, PRO TOOLS AND SOME GIFTS + THEY OFFER 1000 PRACTICE HOURS AND 24/7 OPEN STUDIOS... I ALSO LIKED LONDON SCHOOL OF SOUND TOO AND POINT BLANK BUT I DON'T KNOW WHICH ONE SHOULD I CHOOSE, CAN YOU GUYS TELL ME POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE SIDES OF THESE THREE COLLEGE?

THANK YOU VERY MUCH

[narcoman]

1. stop posting in caps.

2. Dont do any of them. Spend your £20k on teaching yourself - at least you might get something out of it.

[MG124cx]

Anytime someone asks about the schools, the answers (often quite unpolite) are " don't go for any of them and teach yourself". Ok, fair enough, i don't like schools as well and in my opinion the only way to learn how to work is working but i decided to go for a sound engineering school anyway for many reasons. Try to understan our point of view just for a minute. Personally i moved to London one year ago, i'm not 100% confident with my english, i'm 24 years old, i know that in this city there are many opportunities (much more than in most of the other cities) but i don't know anybody here who can (or want) give me a hand learning. I could come back to Milan but i would end up mixing cartoons in a small post production studio and nothing more. It's challenging try to start a career in London, but i think it's worth. So, what shall i do? Teaching myself for years, trying to find a job with no previous professional experiences (you always write that it's really difficoult to find a job, don't you?) and getting older (because anyway we are good for a junior position as studio assistant or whatever untill we are 25, maybe 26) without a job or maybe, as i'm lucky enough to afford it, go for one of this school where anyway you learn things, you practice a lot and you know people who work in studios and can give you some tips and contacts?
I know that when i will finish my course i won't be a professional and i will still have loads to learn, but it can be a good way to start.
I'd love to receive some advices from you, professionals, not only about bounceing a session or connect a mixer but also about how to start, how to learn and work.
Thank you.

[narcoman]

..... and you're no more likely to get a job with one of these "qualifications". I understand the social side - that's fine. Getting to know people is an important part of life. I can even understand that the people you'll get to know will share interests - in music. Fine.

Better off doing a degree in a useful subject and hanging out in studios.

The main issue with many of these course is simple:

a) This isn't rocket science. It isn't hard to learn at a basic functional level
b) the maths involved is barely above A-level yet many of the courses don't mention it
c) you need practical skills to really WORK. Electrical knowledge, music reading skills. All not taught in most music tech courses.
d) There are two well known "music tech" colleges with serious illegal backgrounds.
e) The teachers are of barely adequate standard. They don't have any practical experience themselves on the whole
f) there are no jobs.

I'm an employer, and as far as employing music engineers one of the few that offers salaried roles {salad rolls?}. I wouldn't touch a graduate of such colleges.

There ARE a couple of good colleges - LIPA springs to mind right now - but places are few and far between and you REALLY better know your maths. Music "production " courses? Most of these courses dont even know what being a producer actually involves - clue.... MUCH more about business than programming beats!

[jayzed]

I'm one of the 'audio engineering schools only benefit the owners of said schools' school, but all the runners at the studio I'm working at went to Alchemea, and they don't seem to have been damaged too much.

Said studio is post not music, however and the runners will admit after a few pints that there is NO work at music studios and they have chosen post due to no work elsewhere.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Opinion on music courses always tends to be quite polarised and often isn't very balanced... but at the end of the day the onus is on a prospective student to balance up all the pros and cons for themselves, and most importantly to do their own research into the credibility and capability of the prospective colleges being considered, and the realistic advantages and disadvantages of attending.

On the plus side for going to college include:

a) The social aspects: living independently, working with a wide range of people in different circumstances, etc

b) Being taught the underpinning technical and scientific knowledge and best practice techniques associated with audio engineering.

c) Being taught how to use a wide range of professional audio equipment (often far beyond the means and requirements of a home studio setup).

d) Learning from experienced professionals and potentially building up a useful network of contacts.

e) Gaining some form of qualification.

However, the potential downsides include:

a) Running up an enormous debt from tuition and accommodation fees that may take decades to repay and affect your standard of living for a very long time.

b) Not being taught the underpinning technical and scientific knowledge to an adequate standard or comprehensively enough, which will have repercussions later on in your career, -- or worse, being taught by people who don't understand the topics themselves and coming away with misunderstandings that could harm future employment opportunities.

I'm appalled by how many colleges employ last year's graduates to teach current undergraduates -- it's a case of the blind leading the blind and standards can only fall in that scenario, which is all too common.

c) Access to studios and equipment may be limited by available resources, restrictive opening hours, oversubscribed courses or poor studio maintenance. It may look fabulous in the brochure but what's the real situation? Only existing students or recent graduates will tell you the truth.

d) There is an old adage 'those who can do, those who can't teach' -- and while I don't support that idea entirely it may be the case that 'professionals' associated with some courses may not have the background or experience that is really required.

e) Qualifications from most of these courses aren't recognised or respected in many cases by potential employers.

Sos what of the alternative of 'teaching yourself' and learning 'on the job' by setting up your own studio facility? While there is some validity to the argument that you can learn on the job and by setting up your own project studio -- effectively investing your money directly in yourself and your equipment rather than to fund a college -- it won't work for everyone and there are still serious pitfalls involved.

Not the least is the danger of not learning the necessary underpinning technical knowledge. Whilst much of it can be learned from books and some magazines, not everyone is capable of teaching themselves that way and there is no provision to check learning or correct any misunderstandings.

There is also the limiting aspect of only knowing how to use the equipment you have, which could cause a problem if suddenly faced with unfamiliar equipment on a paying job. Would you have the range of experience and underlying understanding of principles to be able to figure it out and use it quickly?

And there is also the aspect of having a limited range of techniques and skills. You will learn how to do things in a way which works for you in your own project studio situation, but won't be exposed to the alternative approaches and techniques of other engineers and so won't be able to develop a portfolio of skills and ways of working that would improve your flexibility and ability to deal with unusual situations.

You won't meet other engineers and producers and so will have a restricted ability to network and advance your working opportunities and career.

My personal recommendation would be to attend a good college course -- I'm a big fan of proper, formal training which I think sets the foundations for a future career, and I also think it is a good opportunity for people to mature and develop themselves personally. Without those foundations your career potential will be very limited.

If you are taught how to operate a machine you are immediately employable, and that's what purely vocational courses (as many music tech colleges offer) do for you... but what happens when that machine becomes obsolete or no one wants what that machines makes anymore? Could you immediately operate the new replacement machine, or work on a different machine making a new product? Probably not... in which case you get sacked and are replaced by a recent graduate who has been taught how to use the new machine or make the new product at college last year.

However, if you understand how the machine works and what the requirements to make the product really are, then applying that understanding to a new machine, or a different product, is much easier. You have the skills and understanding to figure things out for yourself and that path leads to a prolonged and developing career. You might help to make better machines, or find new interesting ways to use them or to make new intersting things. That's what formal academic education provides -- the inate ability to develop your skills endlessly.

In practice, most of us need a combination of both elements but not all colleges meet that requirement, or not in a way that suits each person individually -- we all learn in different ways and at different rates, so it's important to find the best solution for you personally. What worked for your mate, or someone on a forum might not be the best solution for you.

The formal education side can certainly come from an established university or college, or an independent training school -- they all have the potential to provide good quality technical training, the experience of working with a wide range of other students and experienced professionals, and the experience of using a broad range of different equipment and on a wide range of different projects. But some will do it better or more appropriately to you than others.

It is also a good idea to run some form of home studio set up to put those ideas into practice and hone your practical and listening skills in your own time.

But it all comes down to you doing your own thorough research of what exactly is on offer. You need to dig far beneath the gloss of the college brochures. You need to visit and look around the actual places for yourself before making life-changing decisions. You need to talk candidly to current and previous students to get a balanced view of what is good and bad about each course and venue, and to weigh up the pros and cons as they affect you personally. You need to find out about the teaching staff, their backgrounds, experience and credentials and how much time they'll actually be teaching and supervising you.

Do all that, and you'll know what the best route is for you personally.

Asking about colleges on a public website might be a start to that process, but that's all it can be.

Hugh

[ConcertinaChap]

Could I suggest you sticky this thread. This question or variants of it are asked every few days and the replies are not always as kind and informative as this thread.

Chris

[The Red Bladder]

I would like to add to this subject one observation that I have made over recent weeks and it may surprise some - Networking!

I have always stated that courses succeed when they are both rigorous and selective. For that reason, the Surrey Tonmeister course (but almost none of the other MT courses) is very successful. It is hard to get on and it is easy to be left by the wayside.

We have all heard stories about various private 'colleges' that offer little or nothing, other than confusion and misinformation. Indeed, it would seem that applies to nearly all private MT courses and nearly all accredited university MT courses in the UK as well.

I have heard however, that here and there (e.g. SAE Glasgow) there are good private courses that offer a real education, are highly selective and above all, are good points for networking.

One of the advantages of going to the Surrey Tonmeister course, is the fact that students are in contact with former students that later offer them jobs and other opportunities. This has even been described as a sort of 'Mafia!'

In Scotland, there is no Tonmeister and the local industry does not have the same film music industry as London. But there is a need for good audio people for both live and studio work and these often seem to come now from the Glasgow SAE. The last year has (reportedly) placed 15 of the 17 graduates in full-time work in audio and these people are now looking at fellow graduates to follow them.

So the three aspects I would be looking for in EVERY and ANY course in MT would be selectivity, rigour and networking.

To gauge networking possibilities, ask former students. Do NOT rely on information from the colleges, they all say that their students are placed in wonderful jobs.

The best course in the World is absolutely of no use to you whatsoever, if at the end of it, employers or customers think it to be worthless and you therefore have no chance of working in your chosen field!

[rootsandculture]

i was intrested in london school of sound ,but when i check the prices...
you know man, it is really expensive , really.
i've decided to teach all myself , and i give u an advice
better spend your money for some studio gear, some stuff .
you can learn all yourself as me
peace.

[DanSoundstudiosrecording]

My friend , i went to Alchemea , I loved it , met some great people , very demanding course lots of lectures and practical time , good studios and most tutors are excellent , it is expensive but you really learn a lot , I now am working at a studio and I am recording and mixing at ...

Spam deleted by James Perrett - any more advertising will result in a ban.

[elfabyanos]

Yeah, I went to Alchemea as well about 7 or 8 years ago. Not sure if it is still the same but I loved it. Teachers actually knew what they were doing and were actually doing real stuff in the biz (found myself in the common room with the Blockheads late one night that a lecturer was working for on something). I didn't expect to get anywhere in the biz myself, I just expected to learn something. I already had a good music tech education from the A-level collegte I went to, again due to good teachers and good equipment. I then went to TVU and dropped out in despair after 6 months, and Alchemea came to my rescue.

It went a bit quick, and if I hadn't have had the good ground work done at A-level a lot of the stuff may have been very hard to keep up with due to the amount of studying of the basics I would have needed to do.

But I always expected to be out of work on leaving it, until I had fought my way into the biz myself. Unfortunately, after Alchemea, I couldn't afford to make tea for a living, so I had to leave the industry to earn some real money and go back in on my own terms.

[PointBlankLondon]

Advertising deleted - The SOS forums are not to be used for advertising your services.

[brothersjohnson]

I took an evening course at London School of Sound and found that beyond the practical skills I learned in lesson it was the additional feedback I got from the tutors that helped me.

All of the tutors were very knowledgeable and I found that they could (and we willing to) answer many questions about the general music business outside of the scope of the course which was in music production. I had taught myself to a certain standard but the course helped me to iron out bad habits and focus on what were the strengths in my tracks and which were the weaknesses.

I suppose it depends what you want from your career but it certainly helped me get a professional attitude to making my music. I also checked out the other schools and LSS was by far the friendliest.

Hope this helps:)

[blacker88]

I'm currently studying at a uni and i find all the above points fair and noteworthy but one thing that i think is an extremely useful experience to learn is working to tight deadlines. this sounds obvious but i think its valuable experience as well as being taught by decent lecturers!

[onesecondglance]

I'm currently studying at a uni and i find all the above points fair and noteworthy but one thing that i think is an extremely useful experience to learn is working to tight deadlines. this sounds obvious but i think its valuable experience as well as being taught by decent lecturers!

i fully agree that this is a valuable skill, but it is one you can learn at any university doing pretty much any course, and in most jobs.

[Dave Garnish]

I've taught at one of the places mentioned and it was vile - I couldn't wait to get out of there. They get the students in, almost promise you a glittering career in the industry, get your (parents) money and can't wait to get you out. Not many come out happy and I found the qualifications they offer usually aren't worth the paper they're written on.

I hear some of the other places are better but I'd steer clear of long courses altogether because it can be very expensive, you end up being taught stuff you already know or stuff that isn't relevant to you.

Short courses are the way forward if you just want to be better at what you do or learn a new area but if you really want to do a long course then make sure you get a proper qualification at the end. I recommend CM Sounds for their degree course. They are a charity and their courses are subsidised - I work there too occasionally and the difference in price, the quality of the course offered and tutors is enormous.

Hope that helps

[VortexBoy]

I am based in the USA.

Can anyone point me to some schools here that are worthwhile or to a suggested course of action?

I know of Full Sail in Florida which is an intensive 9-month course but costs around $35,000. However, I would be willing pay this kind of money if I knew that it has been worthwhile to previous students.

If I was financially secure for the rest of my life (lottery win, etc.) I would still be immersed in the world of sound, music and special effects.
I love it all and I want to do this type of work for the rest of my life, having done things so far that I don't particularly like.

I do find the general gist of this thread (and on others) somewhat soul sapping & dispiriting when I hear that its pot luck what kind of success you have at X school or the flippant comment of "just join a Tonmeister class", while omitting that you are required to be a proficient musician beforehand with a particular instrument and then, that places are extremely limited even if you get past that not insignificant hurdle.

It is hard to feel good about this area when it is so hard to find a way through and a lot seems to rest on pot luck and not picking a charlatan school.

I am wondering where are all the sound engineers working if a lot of music and sound is now produced by at home on pc's, and not specifically by sound engineers?

Also, the message to "do your own research", and "satisfy yourself" etc, is easy to say but hard to put into practice without having some benchmark with which to judge things for absolute beginners, which is what I am (I know how to put a CD into a CD player and that's about it ).

I don't know what to do to be honest.

[Michael Doherty]

Thanks all of you Guys Very interesting answers...

[DrumIntoTheNight]

I hope this doesn't count as spamming, but I have a blog here which is charting my experiences of the Diploma in Studio Sound Engineering at Alchemea.

I hope it's a useful resource for people who want some information from a current student, because I know there was precious little when I was researching which course to join.

I can also tentatively recommend Alchemea, based on my first few weeks and some of the overwhelming negativity I've seen about other courses (ie. SAE).

But yeah, anyone who wants to ask any questions about the course is more than welcome to hit me up on my blog.

[tom.u]

Whatever you choose, NEVER go for SAE! Please don't!
I have wasted my money and they thought me... not much at all.

[Chart Entry]

Everything to gain a legal UK music release and register for digital sales to count towards an official uk single download chart position including the collection of "Royalties" for airplay is really simpler than many of you think, I urge any self publishing artist not to give up.

Make sure whichever education course you choose it will contain enough information to help you correctly register yourself and the music otherwise your efforts will be wasted!

[Dave Garnish]

@vortexboy

For the states, check out Studio House http://www.studiohouse.com/

I know one of the chaps setting it up - you may be able to get a good deal as it's in its infancy. Very exciting stuff going on there.

Also, SSR are setting up an ambitious project in London to really give SAE and the others a run for their money. Neve VR60, amazing building in Camden. Not sure when they open. http://www.ssrlondon.co.uk/

More options so choose wisely.

[VortexBoy]

A belated thanks Dave for these tips.
I'll look into them.

Having the ability to live in either country and assuming I could get into both course, which one would you opt for if you were starting out?
I ask this from the basis of what they teach/what you will get out of the courses apart from the fact that there is a significant price difference between the 2.

[doncorti]

My friend , i went to Alchemea , I loved it , met some great people , very demanding course lots of lectures and practical time , good studios and most tutors are excellent , it is expensive but you really learn a lot , I now am working at a studio and I am recording and mixing at ...

Spam deleted by James Perrett - any more advertising will result in a ban.

its expensive, but how much expensive? can you give us some more details?

[Hugh Robjohns]

I'm sure you'll find details about course costs on the Alchemea website.

hugh