PC or Mac? whats better for music?

[Exalted Wombat]

[quote="johnny hOkay well a replacement keyboard direct from apple is £29... doesn't seem too bad really. Maybe next time when one of your novice apple owning friends is about to spend £250 on a dvd replacement, tell them to type it into google so they can get it all done for £100. I'd definitely do that for my friends. [/quote]

Where can you pay £100 for a DVD? The last one I replaced cost about £20. And, as it happens, was int"]a Mac.

[hollowsun]

It's only still running because of the complete twaddle perpetrated by people like you. "needs fixing every few months" Bollox.

Well... hardly bollox given that it DID need fixing every few months.

My macbook pro on the other hand has had - 3 new batteries, four power supplies, 2 hard disk drives, one new logic board, and cost a sodding fortune.

What? No warranty?

You had bad luck ... like we did when we bought a washing machine that was a right PITA pretty much from Day One. Sh¡t happens!

But guess what? thats just the luck of the draw, sod all to do with which one is best.

Which is why discussions such as this are futile. If you have the money, buy a Benz or a BMW. If you don't, buy a Ford ... or a Skoda ... or a second hand Vauxhall. They all do the same job with varying degrees of reliability. Chances are the the Benz experience will be better but there's no guarantee of that - that old Vauxhall might be the better investment especially if you have the ability to fix it yourself and don't mind spending a Saturday morning with the bonnet open. Other people want a different experience and are prepared to pay for it. What IS the problem?

And I suspect that Vauxhall Man will no doubt gloat and whoop for joy as he whizzes past past Benz man broken down on the hard shoulder of the M4. I am suspecting an element of that gloating here.

You reckon your ancient non Intel Mac is still worth a few bob? Maybe - if you sell it to some geeky schoolteacher who doesn't know any better, but you'll have to con the sucker.

I didn't say I could retire on the proceeds but I could get a few bob for it.

Microsoft gives you a free virus stopper that updates itself in the background

Isn't that part of the problem though - anti-virus thingies updating your PC in the background without you knowing which (potentially) cause conflicts? I wouldn't know - it's not something Mac users have to contend with (thankfully) and I hope to God that Apple don't come to dominate the market (not that they ever will) because those charming Russian hackers will (largely) leave us alone as it's not worth their while. Neither will we be persuaded to by anti-virus stuff that is a vehicle for malware.

Coincidentally (and I kid you not) but the Mac updater has just popped up to tell me that here are updates available. No - seriously! It did.

I declined.

it's horses for courses

Too right it is.

so don't be spreading that mine is longer than yours krap because it shows you up as a non thinker.

I couldn't give a rat's arse what you use and I'd like to think you don't give a rat's arse what I use because it is all totally irrelevant. Whatever gets the job done and in MY experience, *I* prefer Macs because they have worked better than PCs I have used and, it would seem, friends, colleagues, clients of mine appear to concur ... from my observations. That is all!

I am genuinely sorry you had a bad experience with your MacBook - in my experience, that's not the norm. Neither is it the experience of those I know (from dabblers to serious pros and many others in between) who made the switch and wish they'd done it ages ago. I can only speak as I see it.

This is such a futile discussion and up there with other futile discussions of what's best for this or that. Vauxhall Man will say his car is best because he can mess with it, pull the carburetor apart for better fuel efficiency and performance and tweak it and replace the cam shaft for £49 while Benz Man will say that he really couldn't give a sh¡t, it drives well, is smooth, he doesn't have to do anything to maintain it. He is really pleased with his purchase and will no doubt get another Benz come the time. He likes the Benz experience so will go for it again.

But both do the same job and both can break down and leave you stranded at any time.

Mac, PC, Benz, Vauxhall, Dyson, Hoover? It's all bollox ... whatever works for you. They are just tools and all do the same job pretty much - choose the one that takes your fancy which you can afford, go for it and hope it all works. Chances are either one will be fine but it's not gauranteed however much you spend.

I just happen to think (based on experience and observations) that Macs have the edge overall. But that's just my experience.

And I really, really couldn't give a toss and, in hindsight, I don't know why I wasted my time getting involved here!

That is all!

[hollowsun]

Fair enough but if you are a professional or even aspiring professional it is a big adavantage to know how to maintain your gear and tools. If you rely on a computer to record with and compose with then knowing how it works can save alot of time. I own a desktop and if ever anything were to break I would have a good idea on trouble shooting the problem and finding a quick and easy solution.

Oh! Come on. Does Jensen Button know the intricacies of the internal combustion engine or how a clutch works or how to set up his headset with HQ? Could Joshua Bell or Hilary Hahn re-hair their bows? Could Glenn Gould set up the action on his Steinway? I doubt it very much. They expect things to just work and are prepared to pay for that.

And if you bought, say, a MiniMoog and the filter inexplicably packed up, could you fix it? You know, take out the multi-meter and track down the offending components and replace them, de-soldering the faulty parts out and soldering new parts in and then calibrating them on an oscilloscope, etc? I don't know your credentials - maybe you could - but FOR MOST OF US, we couldn't.

Classically trained pianists at the top of their tree can't tune a piano, most session musos turning up for a Rhodes gig couldn't fix a broken tine and most Hammondists probably couldn't repair a malfunctioning Leslie. And back in the day, I doubt that the finest recording and mix engineers and producers could repair a dodgy mixer channel or broken mic. Perhaps the exceptional one could but their role was to use the tools creatively. If anything went wrong, call in the boffins and technicians.

I may be wrong but you seem to think that just because YOU have the experience/knowledge/skill to troubleshoot and fix computer problems, you seem to think that everyone should be able to do the same with the same consummate ease. Good for you, more power to your elbow and I envy you in a way but it smacks of a certain arrogance. To paraphrase Apple's 1984 slogan, the Mac is for 'the rest of us', those of us who just want/need to get on with sh¡t and not have to bugger about with BIOSs and repositories and what not.

I like Macs and I prefer their OS. That's it. Mine don't give me any trouble and I like it that way because I have enough to be getting on with.

If your PC does the same for you, 24/7/365 (pretty much) in a 'pro', money earning situation with no fiddling, tweaking, maintenance and absolutely no thought of such nonsense, 'Huzzah' to you. Please continue with my best wishes and good luck to you.

I really couldn't give a sh¡t either way.

But you do have to admit that you have an advantage over yer typical PC user who is largely clueless.

For Mac users, cluelessness comes as standard because, by and large, we don't have to worry about computing minutiae and fiddling and sh¡t!

[il Padrino]

And now for something on topic, yet hugely entertaining.

And something further more!

How the second article had me in tears

But to answer the original question.... Ah, s.o.d it. The answers are on the last 4 pages. If you haven't realised by now, PCs and MACs are as good or as bad as each other. It the person using them that gets the best out of them....

[johnny h]

a Mac.

For a replacement internal macbook drive replaced and shipped. Obviously internal desktop ones cost less. Its kinda boring when you have to spell out really obvious things all the time.

[johnny h]

Fair enough but if you are a professional or even aspiring professional it is a big adavantage to know how to maintain your gear and tools. If you rely on a computer to record with and compose with then knowing how it works can save alot of time. I own a desktop and if ever anything were to break I would have a good idea on trouble shooting the problem and finding a quick and easy solution.

Oh! Come on. Does Jensen Button know the intricacies of the internal combustion engine or how a clutch works or how to set up his headset with HQ? Could Joshua Bell or Hilary Hahn re-hair their bows? Could Glenn Gould set up the action on his Steinway? I doubt it very much. They expect things to just work and are prepared to pay for that.

And if you bought, say, a MiniMoog and the filter inexplicably packed up, could you fix it? You know, take out the multi-meter and track down the offending components and replace them, de-soldering the faulty parts out and soldering new parts in and then calibrating them on an oscilloscope, etc? I don't know your credentials - maybe you could - but FOR MOST OF US, we couldn't.

Classically trained pianists at the top of their tree can't tune a piano, most session musos turning up for a Rhodes gig couldn't fix a broken tine and most Hammondists probably couldn't repair a malfunctioning Leslie. And back in the day, I doubt that the finest recording and mix engineers and producers could repair a dodgy mixer channel or broken mic. Perhaps the exceptional one could but their role was to use the tools creatively. If anything went wrong, call in the boffins and technicians.

I may be wrong but you seem to think that just because YOU have the experience/knowledge/skill to troubleshoot and fix computer problems, you seem to think that everyone should be able to do the same with the same consummate ease. Good for you, more power to your elbow and I envy you in a way but it smacks of a certain arrogance. To paraphrase Apple's 1984 slogan, the Mac is for 'the rest of us', those of us who just want/need to get on with sh¡t and not have to bugger about with BIOSs and repositories and what not.

I like Macs and I prefer their OS. That's it. Mine don't give me any trouble and I like it that way because I have enough to be getting on with.

If your PC does the same for you, 24/7/365 (pretty much) in a 'pro', money earning situation with no fiddling, tweaking, maintenance and absolutely no thought of such nonsense, 'Huzzah' to you. Please continue with my best wishes and good luck to you.

I really couldn't give a sh¡t either way.

But you do have to admit that you have an advantage over yer typical PC user who is largely clueless.

For Mac users, cluelessness comes as standard because, by and large, we don't have to worry about computing minutiae and fiddling and sh¡t!

Yeah you've got a very good point here. Being good with computers isn't anything to do with making music - can't believe someone earlier compared it with not being able to tune a guitar! All that technical stuff gets in the way and if you can afford to not have to deal with trawling audio performance websites, looking up incompatible chipsets and mucking around with firewalls/virus checkers then you're in a much better situation.

Oh and sod not being able to use the internet on your music computer. Its 2010 ffs do people still burn cds and send them in the post ?

[Jez Corbett]

Johnnyh - although one could argue that your points became redundant from the first time you hit the 'reply' button on this thread, the fact you criticise Windows over OSX for "needing a firewall" you undid yourself irrepairably.

Any system connected to a network needs a firewall. While viruses may be OS-specific, hacking attempts are OS-independent. A badly secured OS may be full of holes to make it easier (e.g. Windows 98) but any device be it a desktop PC, a network drive, a cash machine or whatever needs a firewall.

OSX comes with a built in firewall.

I'll say that again. Your OSX that you say is superior because it doesn't need a firewall DOES need a firewall and it DOES have one and you CAN'T turn it off.

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1810

So just stay out of this thread because your credibility is forfeit and you have nothing to add to the debate of any worth.

[Pete Kaine]

There's absolutely nothing "musical" about fiddling around on the floor taking out bits of ram, resolving irq conflicts, running virus checkers and installing firewalls. Nothing at all.

What I don't understand is why would a studio owner with a none self built p.c. wish to do any of that.

You purchased the system - Call them and tell them to service it and get the upgrade at the same time.

IRQ conflicts haven't existed for the end user since windows M.E. over a decade ago.

Virus Checkers and firewalls - if your in a studio the chances are that the's more than one machine in there. So you have a ADSL router (ooh like the one you can plug into the mac) so turn on the single firewall on that and forget about it. I ran 6 machines at home on a network for years with no antivirus and no issues (my server box is still AV free) and the only reason it's on my main machine now is the fact I have an e-mail client on there. If you don't download e-mail and don't surf for porn then it's not really an issue.

If you have a mac I'd still turn on a hardware firewall as the are flash based plug in's and other none OS specific nastys that can affect you that a firewall would prevent should your users not be as careful as you.

If you build it yourself then of course you have to do all the maintance. If you buy one from a retailer as a system then most of that arguement is invalid.

Oh really? How does it know which programs to allow access to the internet then?

Use a hardware one. Anyone who has broadband has one anyway and never see a pop up again.

Audio build.. well there you go straight back round in circles - you need to know all these technicalities which have NOTHING to do with making music.

Pay someone else. Save a few hundred quid and get a better system.

My macbook pro on the other hand has had - 3 new batteries, four power supplies, 2 hard disk drives, one new logic board, and cost a sodding fortune.

What? No warranty?

You had bad luck ... like we did when we bought a washing machine that was a right PITA pretty much from Day One. Sh¡t happens!

But guess what? thats just the luck of the draw, sod all to do with which one is best.

Indeed. It's all the same hardware and it all breaks. I've done an hour on stage with a dell laptop and it's been solid, and then my mates had his macbook crash out 3 times in 45 mins. It happens.

Coincidentally (and I kid you not) but the Mac updater has just popped up to tell me that here are updates available. No - seriously! It did.

The most intrusive pop up i've ever had is the one that installs with quicktime that used to be forced upon you and proceeded to force updates and sneak in Safari without asking you.

And as for Itunes. Worst. Virus. Ever.

Okay well a replacement keyboard direct from apple is £29... doesn't seem too bad really. Maybe next time when one of your novice apple owning friends is about to spend £250 on a dvd replacement, tell them to type it into google so they can get it all done for £100. I'd definitely do that for my friends.

Where can you pay £100 for a DVD? The last one I replaced cost about £20. And, as it happens, was int"]a Mac.

For a replacement internal macbook drive replaced and shipped. Obviously internal desktop ones cost less. Its kinda boring when you have to spell out really obvious things all the time.

Replacement internal Dvd drive for a P.C. laptop £30
Paying any computer shop to fit it for £20
Saving £50 and saving the 2 week round trip to apple HQ £Priceless

I build and use PCs and they are all different. I think it mostly depends on the case.

Highly damped cases, like the Antec Sonata, which I personally favour, make more of a 'donk' sound.

That has me thinking. I reckon I could organize a Blackout Crew special edition case with a Donk on it and be onto a winner...

[Jez Corbett]

Hollowsun - no one needs to fiddle with a PC at all to make music if they buy a 'workstation' machine from a credible source. Custom selected hardware known to work together well rather than just to fit a price bracket is how Apple spec their professional machines, and it's how any other computer manufacturer spec their machines.

Meddling around with IRQs or whatever is more or less a thing of the past. My current machine required only one tweak (the 'background services' priority) and no fiddling, and my machine is a bizarre frankenstein of bits gradually upgraded over the last ten years. My machine at work is even more of a mess, running tons of background stuff that would set most DAW users off in a sweat, including using spare processing power to do 3D rendering over the network!

This stuff going on in the background I'm sure affects performance! But it doesn't cause it to cough splutter and cock up, and this machine was built by an IT department who wouldn't know what suits an audio machine from their arse.

Most computers these days pretty much "just work". If it doesn't, it's because something is faulty or whoever designed it was working to a cost rather than building a proper machine.

[Pete Kaine]

Macs ARE pc's now with a different operating system.

Think we should just copy and paste that a million times and lock the thread?

[Guy Johnson]

Macs always were PCs with a different OS. PCs don't just run Windows....

Still a few rants guys, and a new ranter too. Lummy!

'Puters wot I 'ave used
IBM
BBC
Acorn
Atari
Windows from W95
Mac from OS7.1

Mac rules.

/gone

[danny_g]

I would find this thread hilarious if it wasn't a clear demonstration that we have too much time on our hands. It's a good substitute for when the muse dries up, I guess?

ATARI running LINUX, anyone?

My ideal?

Hammond Novachord + Oberheim Xpander + DMX + Kurzweil master keyboard + Roland SpaceEcho + me old Fostex R8 (minus dust and alignment problems) + acetate lathe.

Nirvana - not a byte in sight...

www.recordplayer.com

[J G Harding]

both are very similar these days. A Mac is silver, californian Dell

Apple cobble together other peoples components just like your average PC manufacturer! They don't make their own processors, GPUs etc. and do not sprinkle magic invincibility dust on any of these components before slotting them into place! They do strap aluminium around them and make them look nice.

If Mac or PC go wrong, you can send them to a tech. If you're comfortable working on computers, you'll be able to open up your PC and have a fiddle. That's harder with a Mac.

The OS is more important than hardware i find. I use a OSX all day every day at work, my only problem is that i don't like finder, and i miss the Win 7 ability to snap windows to the sides. When in win 7 i miss expose, but have a freeware application for that.

They're both great, all in all it's just preference eh?

[Will_m]

Oh! Come on. Does Jensen Button know the intricacies of the internal combustion engine or how a clutch works or how to set up his headset with HQ? Could Joshua Bell or Hilary Hahn re-hair their bows? Could Glenn Gould set up the action on his Steinway? I doubt it very much. They expect things to just work and are prepared to pay for that.

And if you bought, say, a MiniMoog and the filter inexplicably packed up, could you fix it? You know, take out the multi-meter and track down the offending components and replace them, de-soldering the faulty parts out and soldering new parts in and then calibrating them on an oscilloscope, etc? I don't know your credentials - maybe you could - but FOR MOST OF US, we couldn't.

I like how you took my logic and applied it to formula 1 racing. I don't think you really understood my post so I'll give it another go for you. I said it was advantageous to be able to troubleshoot and fix the equipment you work with, something I'll stick by. If you've ever done live sound within a small team etc then problem solving is key, especially under timed conditions. I agee that Jensen Button may not know all the inner workings of his car but he has the advantage of having a team of paid professionals behind him as do all of your other examples.

I like you also wouldn't know how to repair any of my external hardware or interface etc if it were to fail but as you failed to notice, my point was that the computer is user servicable, many of these are not. My computer has a manual and instructs on how to replace parts and self troubleshoot so I'm going to take full advantage of that fact. Thats why the point about servicing was made as it an operation that can be done by the user, saving money and more importantly, time. The only tech support I'd go for is that of a dedicated DAW builder. When I had my Carillon they had fantastic support and even a remote desktop service to fix any problems that occured.

I really couldn't give a sh¡t either way.

Charmed, but if you're going to swear then don't censor yourself as well, it makes you look like a to*l.

For Mac users, cluelessness comes as standard

Might get this framed, it just might be the next Apple marketing slogan

And onto Johnny who was verging on trolling with his last post, as has been pointed out, your inforamtion on the Win OS is either outdated or just plain innnacurate. To answer you though, I have a hardware based firewall so no messages, my av runs quietly in the background so no problems there.

As for your comment on the price of DVD drive and keyboard replacement, it was a macbook keyboard and dvd drive that needed replacing and the price quoted for parts and repair was £250 + having to drive an hour to the nearest apple store. Your quote of £100 is still very high though but I'm guessing that was for a desktop?

To anyone that keeps saying computers have nothing to do with music but then use a computer everyday to record or mix or even to send tracks to clients etc, get rid of your computer. It's clearly dead weight to you.

[Exalted Wombat]

Okay well a replacement keyboard direct from apple is £29... doesn't seem too bad really. Maybe next time when one of your novice apple owning friends is about to spend £250 on a dvd replacement, tell them to type it into google so they can get it all done for £100. I'd definitely do that for my friends.

Where can you pay £100 for a DVD? The last one I replaced cost about £20. And, as it happens, was int a Mac.

For a replacement internal macbook drive replaced and shipped. Obviously internal desktop ones cost less. Its kinda boring when you have to spell out really obvious things all the time.

Well, that's high for a laptop drive, but not ridiculously high. £29 isn't bad for a laptop keyboard though (we ARE still talking about a laptop, can you confirm?) Perhaps Apple forgot to put an extra zero on the end of the price!

[tomafd]

But to answer the original question.... Ah, s.o.d it. The answers are on the last 4 pages. If you haven't realised by now, PCs and MACs are as good or as bad as each other. It the person using them that gets the best out of them....

Indeed. For most of us, familiarity wins the day. Back in the dark ages, when I first moved from hardware recorders to everything ITB, only Macs provided a semi-reliable platform to do it on - or so it seemed to a 'clueless' computer bod like me, watching all my friends with PCs losing their hair while Mac users just got on with making music.

So I got a Mac, and made music. 15 or so years later, I'm still using them, simply because I know the OS, and I'm used to the way Mac do things. I'm willing to pay the extra cash each time I upgrade so I can carry on making music with as little trouble and time spent [ ****** ] about with the computer as possible. It's that simple.

Go with what you know. As long as the [ ****** ] thing works - and most do, these days, use any [ ****** ] computer you want. This endless PC v Mac thing really isn't worth it.

[A Non O Miss]

Pepsi or Coke.....SURPRISE!!!

[RegressiveRock]

im a PC person iv only ever known PC's but im debating on getting a Mac, so whats better for my musical needs?

Thank God this guy didn't mention tape and digital at the same time!

What happens with DAWs is that User X eventually settles on a system that suits, probably swearing by several other systems on the way.

User Reggie's current little system is iMac / Logic and it works well. But probably it could be viewed as little more than a magnetic media, razor blade and sellotape.

The things that make me able to make interesting music is working with other musicians - often more talented than me. Owning some pretty nice guitars, mikes, pres and conversion also makes life much easier. In fact, my financial investment in these is many, many times my iMac and Logic and the benefit of knowing good players is, frankly, priceless.

Reg (who has worked on PC both tower and Laptop with Cubase, Cakewalk, Sonar and Soundforge and Mac both iMac and MacBook with Logic and does get on better with Mac's but that's just Reg!)

[Exalted Wombat]

Pepsi or Coke.....SURPRISE!!!

Is one of those much more expensive and heavily promoted as the luxury brand? I personally dislike both types of sugary water.

[Badeshi]

HAHAHA I love these 'debates'

but seriously you're all spinning out about a word processor, great for posting intelectual arguements on forums but not for music

gimme an MMT8 any day!!

[Hugh Robjohns]

I think this has spun around for more than long enough now, so let's draw it to a quiet close. To balance out the closing post in the parallel of this thread on the Mac forum, and since this is the PC forum, then clearly PCs are better...

But in all honesty, both platforms are perfectly capable of providing the means to make great music when set up appropriately and used intelligently. Plenty of high end pros work with PC-based systems perfectly well.

The decision is not actually about which platform is better, but about what software you prefer to work with, or what suits your particular way of working. Once you know that, then you can specify a platform to run that software.

Specifying a Mac is obviously rather easier than specifying a PC, and that's one reason why many people prefer the Mac route. But there are plenty of very capable PC systems out there and PC builders (some of who have contributed to this thread) who understand how to select and combine the various component parts to build systems which are every bit as powerful and reliable as any Mac.

At the end of the day, making music is the important bit and which tools you use to do that are rather less important.

Hugh