TL Audio Fat Track - Worth buying without the digital out card?

[Kolakube]

Id like to warm some of my hardware synths up, a perfect job for the TL Audio Fat Track I thought.

However I then have to output the Fat Track To my DAW via my bog standard soundcard as i haven't the budget of another £550 for the TL Audio DO-8 digital out board

So my current chain is - H/Ware synth > MOTU 828 Mk1.

With the Fat Track it will be H/Ware synth > Fat Track > MOTU 828 Mk1.

Woun't this totally make the Fat Track only as good as my soundcard? IE not very?

[Kolakube]

39 views and counting. Come on, don't be shy, someone reply.

[Mixedup]

I've always thought TL digital boards rather pricey compared with those of most of the competition. The MOTU 828 Mk1 was good in its day, but there are certainly better converters out there now. Whether the TL stuff is, I don't know.

But given that I've seen Focusrite Liquid Saffires and even RME FF800s going (second hand) for the price of a TL digital board, I'd suggest your money could be better spent if you had it.

Why not try the TL board with your current interface? You might be pleasantly surprised.

...and if not, well, what other options are you looking; what is it you're trying to add to your system?

[Kolakube]

Hiya Mixed up.

I just find VST instruments, al though incredibly flexible, cold and brittle sounding.

I mentioned my 828mk1 as this is suerly where the buc stops. For EG I could output a Neve or SSL console worth half a million into my PC yet they all have to get through my 828 Mk1. So the Fat Track is not in question really, but more how can it make things better? Or am I missing something here?

So, as much as the Fat Track may be what im after it can only be as good as the inputs on my sound card. Do you agree?

There is a digital card that would plug nicely into my 828 thus bypassing this weak point however the digital out card for the fattrack is yet another 600 quid

[The Elf]

I push all kinds of sounds through a combination of valve pre-amps and valve equalisers and run these into my audio interface’s analogue inputs without a second thought. I’d suggest that whatever you’re finding in a piece of external hardware is sure to be recorded faithfully enough to make it worthwhile. I say passing on the digital interface is not such a big deal.

But when I use instruments such as NI’s B4, M-Tron or Cubase’s own Embracer, for example, the very LAST words on my lips would be ‘cold’ or ‘brittle’. I wonder if you might be running them too hot?

I invariably find that I need to back off the gain on VSTis by at least 6dB-12dB, and often considerably more, to help them sit with a bundle of audio tracks recorded to a peak of -6dBFS or less. If your VSTis are running full-tilt they may simply be straining the limits of something in your output/monitoring chain.

[Kolakube]

Ahhh, my good old VST v Hardware sparing partner the Elf :]

Our 3 year long debate aside ( ) your opinion is one I respect Elf.

Can you just confirm if I plug my Hardware synth into the Fat Track (and the Fat Track does it for me giving me the sound im after) then I will be able to capture that sound via an analogue input?

I just worry I spend the best part of 900 shecks on this thing and it blows my socks off, then when I play back on my PC it removes the goodness thanks to my interface to it. I know you have stated as much above but I need reassurance.

[Richie Royale]

Can you just confirm if I plug my Hardware synth into the Fat Track (and the Fat Track does it for me giving me the sound im after) then I will be able to capture that sound via an analogue input?

Only you can answer that. When you plug in your synth and record it does it play back exactly the same? Or is it coloured in a certain way? As others have mentioned, it may be that you are better off uprgading your audio interface rather than adding a processor that becomes coloured by the interface you are using. The chain is only as strong as the weakest link.

[Kolakube]

Like any sampler since the days of the S1000 Richie it sounds thiner. I don't think they have made a sampler yet that can get around this where the sample sounds as good as the original. Well, no when im sampling anyhow :]

Of course you can just re EQ it and get it closer to the original

I always remember the mid 90's producer Motive 8 who only used his MiniMoog after sampling it because it sat better in the mix as it shopped of the unneeded excess bass.

These days my interface gives me a very transparent sample (although as said its defiantly thinner sounding)

I suppose im after not sounding like the 6 billion people who use VSTs and all sound exactly the same. I want to stand out from the crowd by using some valve outboard. So I guess what im asking is would my analogue input allow this?

[The Elf]

Yep, I agree with Richie.

If you can record your JP4 into your interface and it sounds as good coming back as going in then there's no need to assume it would do anything different with any other signal. But can I guarantee anything for you and your audio interface? Sorry, no!

Whether a Fat Track will give you the sound you have in mind is a different question altogether. Might you be better saving that Fat Track fund for another hardware synth or two?

[vinyl_junkie]

Oh god not this warm up my sound for me so I'll get valves debate lol

TL Audio are lame too, what a load of utter marketing tosh

[Mixedup]

If the debate is about colouring your sound, and not about the quality of your converters, then yes; you just route things through the analogue IO of your card and you'll be fine. Doesn't sound like you need multi-track IO for this though. Just a nice stereo preamp with decent transformers should do what you're after. I've been very happy using the GA Pre73 for this on mono sources, for example; or adding nice quirky old hardware reverbs for a bit of character...

[Mixedup]

p.s. have a read of this if you haven't already.

[The Elf]

Why do you feel that it’s VSTis that are making everyone sound the same? Could this not be true of the use of Autotune, rapping, 303/909 rhythm patterns and 4/4 beats? You don’t need a VSTi to be unoriginal.

To me it matters little whether someone is using a VSTi or a bank of Moog modulars. It’s not the instrument, in whatever form, that makes you unique – it’s what you do with it. Most Prophet 5s came back to the factory with their presets intact!

Put a valve in the signal path and you’re one of the millions putting valves in the signal path – it has no genuine value of unique-ness. Only a handful of golden eared listeners would be able to tell anyway.

Only your music will make you unique. Get that right and you could play it on a Casio VL-Tone – in fact, I seem to recall a band that da-da did just that!...

[The Elf]

Oh god not this warm up my sound for me so I'll get valves debate lol

TL Audio are lame too, what a load of utter marketing tosh

I do like TLA's EQ-1 and EQ-2 for what they are. Very smooth equalisers - the valves are almost incidental. But yeah, the valve thing is way overplayed by both manufacturers and punters alike.

[vinyl_junkie]

Why do you feel that it’s VSTis that making everyone sound the same? Could this not be true of the use of Autotune, rapping, 303/909 rhythm patterns and 4/4 beats? You don’t need a VSTi to be unoriginal.

To me it matters little whether someone is using a VSTi or a bank of Moog modulars. It’s not the instrument, in whatever form, that makes you unique – it’s what you do with it. Most Prophet 5s came back to the factory with their presets intact!

Put a valve in the signal path and you’re one of the millions putting valves in the signal path – I has no genuine value of unique-ness. Only a handful of golden eared listeners would be able to tell anyway.

Only your music will make you unique. Get that right and you could play it on a Casio VL-Tone – in fact, I seem to recall a band that da-da did just that!...

Amen Brotha!

[Kolakube]

Thanks for links Mixed up

Elf,

If you have 4 different synths (hardware) they all have different characters as they all have unique circuits and therefore sound unique.

My mate has the Alturia collection. He tries to dazzle me with ARP 2600, MiniMoogs and Jupiter 8s that all sound exactly the same as they all come through his exact same DAC.

Yes I love VSTs, they have revolutionised how simply music making can be, with zero maintenance, free updates, instant recall etc etc but they all sound exactly the same IE no personal character. There pritty much as good as a digital synth can be all running of the same hardware.

I know you disagree Elf and we have to agree to disagree.

Im not trying to convert anyone, just trying to do something different. You have already claimed yourself you use valve technology. Why do that if VSTs are superb as is?

Guys im doing a lot of uni work at the mo, so if this turn into a huge debate ill just bow out now.

I really didn't want to get into this again.

[Kolakube]

Vinyl junkie thanks for stiring. Elf really need fule for his fire

If you disagre so strongly Martin, why do you bother with SOS??

It sates quie clearly here in the Pro's section

QUOTE - The sound of the valves and EQ is marvellous.UNQUOTE

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun08/a ... ttrack.htm

What not compose an Email to Mike Senior who wrote the article and tell him what you think. I have heard the difference good quality valves make. Hence how everyone hampers after UAD cards with there emulations that of course dont come close to the originals yet give skint people like me a chance to have something close.

Why the hell do you use an analoge mixer??

[The Elf]

In deference to your workload we'll call it a draw then.

[Andy McBain]

Just to add my two pennoth... I've never used a Fat Track but I do own an old Fat 1 (albeit with a different Valve) which I primarily use to process my hardware synths. I really like the character it gives, especially to my virtual analogues. I'm into harder sounds so I tend to turn the input gain up and get things sounding really fuzzy, and effect that is far from subtle. Not a sound I've ever managed to coax out of a plugin either!

But with regards to the converter thing, if you're happy with the way they capture your synths anyway, then there's no reason why you wouldn't be happy with the way it captures them through a Fat Track. It looks like a cool box actually, and the pre-amps and EQ might enhance it's usefulness beyond that of 'warming up' your synths.

[Kolakube]

Sorry Elf that outburst wasn't aimed at you its vinyl junkie egging you on yet he used an analogue mixer, a 4 track portastuido that he loves over driving and all his studio is hardware.

Id also have an analogue tape machine if they were not such a bugger to look after.

I do agree with you Elf. Valves alone wont make you better, of course I do. But no matter how good or poor I am they can make me better sounding than I was without them, of course if you like the sound of slightly over driven valves which I do.

Right, back to work, must resist the internet!!

[Kolakube]

Reverend - exactly how I feel fella.

[The Elf]

if you like the sound of slightly over driven valves which I do.

On that we can certainly agree! Now go get the work done!

[vinyl_junkie]

Not saying TL audio stuff don't sound good but their gear uses marketing valves - and no coupling transformers. Their flagship processor costs a tenth of its retail to make... Their production facility is top notch. TL exploit naive younger producers - it's not real tube gear.

Sound Engineering Legend, Bob Olhsson, Puts the Record Straight about Tube Gear..orig thread her:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/mastering-forum/169598-headroom-analog-equipment.html

Olhsson's credits include working for Norman Whitfield and The Funk Brothers. He is one of the most respected voices on the audio Internet groups and now works out of a state-of-the-art mastering facility.

I've said the same thing as Olhsson, here, on numerous occasions, but I'm not sure people wanted to listen. As I quoted before, legendary designer, Tim de Paravincini (EAR-Yoshino - inventor of 1" mastering) has gone on record as stating that he only uses tubes for marketing reasons and he can get the same results in transistor designs.

It's the topology that creates the sound. As Paravincini says, "electrons have no memory".

Poor-quality tube equipment uses low plate voltage and is designed to sound overtly coloured, with a kind of 'pastiche tube sound' - this doesn't help prevent the spread of misconceptions. In reality there is no such thing as a 'euphonic tube sound' and top-notch valve equipment is some of the most neutral and uncoloured you will hear. The only exception to the rule is guitar amps, which use the tube / transformer combination to generate a particular saturation characteristic when pushed to the absolute limit.

Tubes are unique where you want a naturally high-impedance input, without additional buffering. Examples are DI / High-Z instrument inputs and microphone buffers. You can also use FETs for a natural high-Z input (The Bozak CMA10-2-DL / DLA does this for its high-Z front-end).

also:

http://www.ear-usa.com/timdeparavicini.htm

"The "warmth" in a lot of tube electronics is due to their dismal top end, the bad transformers they use, and the loading down of their high-impedance outputs. Because of the output transformer and the feedback used, many tube circuits have a partial bass instability that gives a bloated bass. Any warmth in the tube sound is a defect, but listeners don't want to know that.

I don't have to use tubes in my designs; I only do it for marketing reasons. I've got an exact equivalent in solid state. I can make either type do the same job, and I have no preference. People can't pick which is which. And electrons have no memory of where they've been! The end result is what counts. "

The ear can be fooled easily. Do your own listening - anyone who understands audio will know how fraught with inaccuracy the totally subjective opinions of others are.

[Stan]

So photogenic! How could you not love em?
Excellent pic from SoS article Analogue Warmth

[Martin Walker]

Hi kolakube!

At the risk of taking this thread slightly off-topic from valve ‘warmth’, you did originally say you want to warm some of your hardware synths up, so perhaps a few of the other ideas I offered here might be of use:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan10/a ... synths.htm

Martin