Hello all,
First time posting here and looking forward to becoming a positive member to this forum.
I've got an old mastered recording of a band I played in years ago and have written new guitar parts that I'd like to mix in for a new demo for reference purposes. Sadly I cannot find the original tracks as I would just easily remix the whole album with the new parts.
Does anybody have any suggestions on how to best mix the new demo album to help the new guitar parts cut through while still maintaining the overall balance of the original songs?
The only things I can think of are panning one guitar part left and other guitar part right and being aware of their levels relative to the bass and vocals. I know EQ could possibly help but don't know how to go about it. I also don't know much about spectral analyzers but there are a few free software ones online so I could always try to learn those.
Thanks in advance!
Glenn
How to mix new guitar parts to already mastered recording?
Re: How to mix new guitar parts to already mastered recording?
Well, it's going to be tricky. If the old mixes are good, you're going to find that any addition to the guitars will cause problems. There won't be space. It'll upset the balance of other elements, most crucially the vocal. But that doesn't mean you can't give it a go. The old mixes might be a bit guitar light, and the vocal a bit loud. Try it.
J
J
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- Jack Ruston
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Posts: 3847 Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:00 am
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Re: How to mix new guitar parts to already mastered recording?
Welcome! 
I'm increasingly being asked to undertake this type of work - must be a sign if the times! Sometimes it's to help out old/live recordings, but often it's due to poor/non-existent backup strategies that have seen project files disappear into the digital ether (worryingly, this isn't limited to home/amateur users)!
This type of activity can often result in new parts that sound 'glued on' to the mix.
If I've managed to achieve anything usable it's been by reducing the bandwidth (using high and low-pass filters) of the new parts to a point where they become 'small' enough to work into the new mix. Saturation can help too. It might also help the illusion to side-chain some compression (or even expansion) from the original mix to the new parts. You also need to be sensitive to the ambience of the mix and choose reverbs/delays that help to push the new sounds back into the mix - this calls for subtelty and further bandwidth reduction.
I'm increasingly being asked to undertake this type of work - must be a sign if the times! Sometimes it's to help out old/live recordings, but often it's due to poor/non-existent backup strategies that have seen project files disappear into the digital ether (worryingly, this isn't limited to home/amateur users)!
This type of activity can often result in new parts that sound 'glued on' to the mix.
If I've managed to achieve anything usable it's been by reducing the bandwidth (using high and low-pass filters) of the new parts to a point where they become 'small' enough to work into the new mix. Saturation can help too. It might also help the illusion to side-chain some compression (or even expansion) from the original mix to the new parts. You also need to be sensitive to the ambience of the mix and choose reverbs/delays that help to push the new sounds back into the mix - this calls for subtelty and further bandwidth reduction.
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.
Re: How to mix new guitar parts to already mastered recording?
Wow, excellent suggestion. I have many recordings made in remote locations that really could do with more instrumentation. I can't wait to try it.
Thanks Elf
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- Howdy Doody Time
Frequent Poster - Posts: 828 Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:00 am Location: Huai Yai, Chon Buri, Siam
The only excuse we have for making music in the first place is to make it differently..vis-a-vis our own difference (Glenn Gould)
Re: How to mix new guitar parts to already mastered recording?
@Jack, thanks for the reply and confirming my initial concerns about getting the sounds to sit.
@elf - Wow, thanks for all those tips! I'm taking notes and will definitely try them all out. I'm intrigued by the use of the high pass filter and low pass filter to help the new guitar sound's frequencies fit in the mix. I'm familiar with how filters work but am unsure as to how much to filter out the new guitar sounds. Aside from just using my ears and trial and error, can you recommend an additional way to know just how much to filter out (filter settings) to be able to squeeze the right amount of guitar into the new mix. Sorry for this newbie question but is there a difference between using filters in comparison to subtractive EQ? Like if I just cut the high frequencies and low frequencies to emphasize the mid range?
I'll also definitely try the compression idea.
I've also been checking around other sources to see how this might work and here's the additional feedback I've received. Thought it might help others in the same boat as me or maybe some of you might have opinions on whether these are also good ideas. Thanks again in advance.
"I would pull the level down on the original track a few dB before starting to give you some head room to work with..maybe run that track through an M/S matrix and lower the sides another dB or 2 in reference to the mid channel. On some recordings the guitars are on the sides, so this might give you a little room to add the new ones. The vocal bass kick and snare usually live in the mid channel, so hopefully that would remain intact... good luck."
"For demo purposes, I'd limit the hell outta the new guitars after EQin' 'em to fit (probably use a high-pass filter to make em cut), probably hard pan them. "
"I have done similar before...really did not turn out as bad as you might guess. I added verse vocals, guitar, and keys to a song that already was more or less a complete song with chorus vocals, no verses. I'd just lower the overall level of your 2 track, mix to taste, and then do some new mastering on it. No one will know the difference."
"Limiting because it's quicker and more transparent, mebbe clearer - you need match only the inital sound and playing vs. the production.
Hard panning if there are two guitars - you did say "new guitar parts", - but also to make it easy for the listener to lower or raise that instrument's volume with panning on playback, keeping in mind you also said, "demo for reference purposes"."
@elf - Wow, thanks for all those tips! I'm taking notes and will definitely try them all out. I'm intrigued by the use of the high pass filter and low pass filter to help the new guitar sound's frequencies fit in the mix. I'm familiar with how filters work but am unsure as to how much to filter out the new guitar sounds. Aside from just using my ears and trial and error, can you recommend an additional way to know just how much to filter out (filter settings) to be able to squeeze the right amount of guitar into the new mix. Sorry for this newbie question but is there a difference between using filters in comparison to subtractive EQ? Like if I just cut the high frequencies and low frequencies to emphasize the mid range?
I'll also definitely try the compression idea.
I've also been checking around other sources to see how this might work and here's the additional feedback I've received. Thought it might help others in the same boat as me or maybe some of you might have opinions on whether these are also good ideas. Thanks again in advance.
"I would pull the level down on the original track a few dB before starting to give you some head room to work with..maybe run that track through an M/S matrix and lower the sides another dB or 2 in reference to the mid channel. On some recordings the guitars are on the sides, so this might give you a little room to add the new ones. The vocal bass kick and snare usually live in the mid channel, so hopefully that would remain intact... good luck."
"For demo purposes, I'd limit the hell outta the new guitars after EQin' 'em to fit (probably use a high-pass filter to make em cut), probably hard pan them. "
"I have done similar before...really did not turn out as bad as you might guess. I added verse vocals, guitar, and keys to a song that already was more or less a complete song with chorus vocals, no verses. I'd just lower the overall level of your 2 track, mix to taste, and then do some new mastering on it. No one will know the difference."
"Limiting because it's quicker and more transparent, mebbe clearer - you need match only the inital sound and playing vs. the production.
Hard panning if there are two guitars - you did say "new guitar parts", - but also to make it easy for the listener to lower or raise that instrument's volume with panning on playback, keeping in mind you also said, "demo for reference purposes"."
Re: How to mix new guitar parts to already mastered recording?
@Jack - forgot to mention that yes, many of these old tracks are guitar light and have found that my initial mixes with the new guitar parts seem to work. But for the old mixes that already have guitars, it does become challenging.
Re: How to mix new guitar parts to already mastered recording?
gj12349 wrote:I'm intrigued by the use of the high pass filter and low pass filter to help the new guitar sound's frequencies fit in the mix. I'm familiar with how filters work but am unsure as to how much to filter out the new guitar sounds.
It's not really possible to give you anything definitive, because it obviously depends on context. What I try to do is to reduce as much bottom from the new material as I can to the point where it recedes into the mix, then I'll reduce any top that makes it sound too shiny.
This is all more or less necessary, depending on the quality and balance of the mix you're trying to add to, of course. When I added lead guitar to a 20-year old mix you might say I was very harsh with the filter settings I chose, but in context it fitted very well!
Once you have the high and low filters set to allow the new material to step into the same space as the mix you can then look at other EQ options. I'm not a purist about cut/boost. If something bothers me I cut it, if I want more I boost.
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.
Re: How to mix new guitar parts to already mastered recording?
The Elf wrote:gj12349 wrote:I'm intrigued by the use of the high pass filter and low pass filter to help the new guitar sound's frequencies fit in the mix. I'm familiar with how filters work but am unsure as to how much to filter out the new guitar sounds.
It's not really possible to give you anything definitive, because it obviously depends on context. What I try to do is to reduce as much bottom from the new material as I can to the point where it recedes into the mix, then I'll reduce any top that makes it sound too shiny.
This is all more or less necessary, depending on the quality and balance of the mix you're trying to add to, of course. When I added lead guitar to a 20-year old mix you might say I was very harsh with the filter settings I chose, but in context it fitted very well!
Once you have the high and low filters set to allow the new material to step into the same space as the mix you can then look at other EQ options. I'm not a purist about cut/boost. If something bothers me I cut it, if I want more I boost.
Thanks for clarifying Elf. Makes perfect sense. It always comes down to context. Even though an individual track might not sound as pretty and full by itself, it might be the perfect fit for a older mix. Thanks for giving me a reference to work off of.
Happy recording!