Buying used advice

[BigElectricCat]

I'm hitting some used guitar stores in Seoul looking for an early 90s fender Japan strat this week. I'd appreciate any advice you guys could pass on about what to look for in a used guitar. For example how much wear on the fretboard is reasonable? How can you judge fret wear? How much would refretting an instrument cost? Any general advice on buying used. Is welcome.

Thanks in advance

Tony.

[Tony Raven]

Fingerboard wear is largely a matter of what bugs you, or whether you're thinking about "collectible" value. Maple-board guitars get kinda uglified when the clearcoat is worn off & the maple (actually a rather soft wood) loads with grime & oxidising oils. If you wind up going for a major refret, the fingerboard could be sanded down, taking some of the crud & divots away, before being refinished. I've played 1930s guitars with significant wear (ebony or rosewood) that didn't bother my left hand, but YMMV.

Any heavily-played guitar will show fret wear in the previous owner's preferred range -- after all, you're grinding steel wire back-&-forth over soft brass. Typically, I see obvious wear under the 3 highest strings at frets 3 thru 7, though heavy use of the wound strings will leave grooves in the fret-tops. All you have to do is compare the top curve to what's (probably) more original up around fret 12 or so on the 6th string -- likely, you'll see some areas that appear flattened. Too much flatness & the string will be resting toward the edge, sharping that note, which becomes more evident to the ear on higher frets.

Unless the frets are severely beat-down, often a level-&-crown solves many old sins. As it's labor-intensive, this will be ~$100.

Around here, a refret would set you back $10-$15 per fret, or about $300 all told -- again, labor-intensive. Many shops charge more for refretting bound necks.

[The Bunk]

I was asking my guitar tutor (who was no slouch and an RGT Examiner) about selling a guitar that I had and what he thought it would be worth.
First thing he did was pick it up and look lengthhways down the neck from the headstock to the body to check it wasn't warped.

[Frisonic]

To me, fret wear is an indication that over the years people have wanted to play the instrument. Its lack of fret wear I'd be more concerned about! If the instrument is so good and has been played so much it needs a refret then make sure that's priced into the equation but don't let it put you off. I have two guitars I acquired on that basis, a 335 and a Music Man Saber bass. Obviously neither gave instant gratification because they were projects and it took time and resources to get them finished. But that's now behind me and its very rewarding to have two such fine instruments in my small collection. If either of them were put up for sale in a quality second hand guitar shop I know they would be the ones to sell fast and at top price. The one's you'd want to buy (the luthier who refretted the 335 wanted to buy it off me).

As already mentioned the neck is really important. Although I find myself looking knowingly down necks, knowing full well an expert would be seeing things I'd never see! Our moderator is one of those and might even have something helpful to say about it that a simpleton like myself can understand... I think its more about how even the fretboard is across the width as you go down, rather than the length, which should be adjustable using the truss rod. But happy to stand corrected if that's BS?

[zenguitar]

All good advice so far Tony.

In your position the first thing I would do would be to try and find a local luthier/repairman who you can trust to do a good job. If you can't find anyone suitable then you can limit your search to instruments that don't need any work beyond a basic set-up. And if you do find someone, get his/her price list so you can factor in the cost of extra work when you are buying.

The next thing to think about is whether you are just looking for a nice strat to play, or hoping to buy something that would be a good investment for the future. If you are looking for long term re-sale value you really do need to keep everything as original as possible, basically it should need no more than a simple set-up and a clean.

If you are just looking for a nice guitar to play then you can consider guitars that need a little more work. First of all, check out the cost of replacement parts. Genuine Fender replacement saddle sets are really cheap and can solve a lot of problems. Also check out the cost of replacement necks, sometimes it can work out cheaper to replace a bad neck than to have it properly refretted.

Give the guitar a close visual inspection all over.

Sighting down a neck can tell an experienced eye a lot, but you should be looking for a couple of basic things that are easily spotted. First of all, ALWAYS sight a neck from the headstock end. You can get some optical illusions when sighting from the body end. Any twisting will be obvious and should be avoided, it can be fixed but it takes time, skill, experience and a lot of heat and steam; and your repairer will charge handsomely. You will also see that the neck is probably not totally straight. You shouldn't be bothered by a slight forward bow (which is correct) or even a slight back bow, but large forward or back bows are a possible concern. The truss rod 'should' be able to adjust the neck properly but where there are large adjustments to be made it is increasingly likely that there will not be enough adjustment available. You might also see a hump where the neck joins the body, rare with bolt on necks, more common with set necks and especially acoustics. A small hump there is fine, but a large hump can indicate potential problems. But you really shouldn't see much if anything on a strat.

And make sure you look at all of the screws closely too. Stripped or heavily chewed slots are a good indication that they've been removed and replaced a few times by someone who doesn't know what they are doing. So chewed neck screws are very worrying, chewed scratchplate screws suggest that the wiring inside might need checking.

Nothing intrinsically wrong with honest wear and tear to the fretboard. If you play it and it bugs you, then it's too much for you, if you don't really notice it, then it's fine.

Hope that all helps, and feel free to ask more if the answers from everyone have triggered more questions

Andy

[Dan Bo]

Any heavily-played guitar will show fret wear in the previous owner's preferred range -- after all, you're grinding steel wire back-&-forth over soft brass.

Erm..... Brass frets?? Aren't they normally nickel alloy or stainless steel?..... Or am i down on my fret material knowledge?

Dan

[BigElectricCat]

The next thing to think about is whether you are just looking for a nice strat to play, or hoping to buy something that would be a good investment for the future. If you are looking for long term re-sale value you really do need to keep everything as original as possible, basically it should need no more than a simple set-up and a clean.

Hi Andy,

Thanks for the great advice.

Is there much chance of a used early 90s American Standard or Fender Japan being worth serious money in say 15-20 years time? To be honest, I never thought of it as an investment, just an instrument to play. However, if there is a realistic chance of it being worth a lot more money later on down the line then it is obviously worth considering....

What do you think?

[jaminem]

Any heavily-played guitar will show fret wear in the previous owner's preferred range -- after all, you're grinding steel wire back-&-forth over soft brass.

Erm..... Brass frets?? Aren't they normally nickel alloy or stainless steel?..... Or am i down on my fret material knowledge?

Dan

My Warwick Streamer has brass frets, My RD has Nickel frets, My Stingray has steel frets.

So I guess all types of metal are used...

[. . . Delete This User . . .]

the majority are nickle silver,

but brass, mild steel, stainless steel, and assorted alloys have been used at various times by various peiople,...

IMHO using anything that is softer than the strings is silly....

but that's just me.,... i'd make frets out of Boron Nitrate if i could....

[zenguitar]

Is there much chance of a used early 90s American Standard or Fender Japan being worth serious money in say 15-20 years time? To be honest, I never thought of it as an investment, just an instrument to play. However, if there is a realistic chance of it being worth a lot more money later on down the line then it is obviously worth considering....

What do you think?

The short, honest, answer is... No one knows what collectors will be looking for 20 years from now. But we can look at the past and see what we can learn.

First up, it's highly unlikely that it will be worth a lot of money in the future. So I wouldn't want to buy specifically as an investment. However, buying a good, clean, all original, guitar and keeping it that way will maintain the value of your original investment far better over time.

And you can learn from what current collectors look for now too. Top of the list are originality and condition. Wherever possible they don't like anything changed, not even a solder joint. And where there has been any work, they want the absolute minimum of change. Seymour Duncan has written a lot on this (his Q&A's on the Duncan website make interesting reading on this and in general), wherever possible he will repair a pick-up rather than rewind it and he will remove the hook-up wires at the pick-up itself when making a repair so he leaves the connections at the pots and switch untouched.

Limited editions and custom colours tend to be less collectible than standard models and popular colours, although sometimes an association with a specific guitarist can make the more obscure models/combinations more attractive. Original cases, accessories and 'case candy' (the original hanging tags and labels you see on new guitars in store) are always attractive to collectors too. You don't want to pay extra for these things, but if you have them don't throw them away

Essentially, what collectors like are all original instruments in good condition. Replacement pick-ups and hardware, repairs and refinishing, and general lack of care reduce values.

So if you are buying with one eye on the future, but want a guitar that is a good player as well, you want to make sure it is exactly right for you as it is. You can't tinker with the hardware, pick-ups and wiring over the years. You are unlikely to make a profit, but you are maximising the return if you sell in the future. And you might get lucky.

And a good rule of thumb... Just as the word Professional in the name of audio equipment warns you that it is unlikely to be of a professional standard, the word Collectable generally means it will never be collectable.

Buy a nice guitar that you like playing and sounds good

Andy

[BigElectricCat]

Buy a nice guitar that you like playing and sounds good

Andy

Thanks a lot for the information Andy. All I really want is a guitar I want to play every day. If someone wants to pay good money for it in the future then great but no biggie.

Cheers,

Tony

[Tony Raven]

Erm..... Brass frets?? Aren't they normally nickel alloy or stainless steel?..... Or am i down on my fret material knowledge?

Fair questions!! There's no silver in "nickel silver" -- I usually find myself calling it "nickel brass" instead. The modern stuff is mostly copper, with nickel & zinc.

Old guitars had out-&-out yellow brass, sometimes a harder "bell brass" with a vaguely greenish tinge.

Steel frets are rather recent, as copper-rich alloys are so much easier to form. Stainless has less corrosion than regular steel, so stay brighter-looking, but it's usually more ductile than most steel alloys, so will still wear. I've noted that some shops charge more for installing steel frets, as shaping them takes longer & causes more tool wear.

[Guest]

Some general, rather than corrective thoughts. Second hand Fenders are what I seek. On a used Strat, after the neck my eyes would go straight to the neck-body join. It should be tight. There's many a fender which can take a credit down down the sides of its neck-body join, and this makes it a less resonant instrument. Which leads me to weight. I find heavy strats sound sluggish YMMV. Both these points concern issues likely installed in the instrument at the factory, not by the previous owner - yet all things fret and electric can be corrected...a fundamentally flawed instrument cannot. Oh, and provided the the neck/join/weight are all good, the more battered/played in the better

[zenguitar]

Indeed Darren,

although a decent tech can shim the side gap in the neck pocket quite easily. Our very own Max did this for someone at the Exeter Analogue to Digital show earlier this year.

You are spot on, it really does make a difference tone wise. But because it can be easily addressed I wouldn't consider it a reason to to reject an otherwise decent guitar.

Andy

[Andi]

Just by way of a thought on fret wear - I have a couple of guitars with original Fender 7 1/4 inch radius fingerboards that have had the frets finished flatter. The fretwork is (or was?) a pretty standard trick; mine are most-excellent set-ups done by Bill Puplett and have lasted for years, but they look completely shot-away if you sight the neck. Come to that, I've also seen guitars finished with necks that flatten as you move-up the frets (compound radius) and even twisted necks that are designed to follow the way your wrists align as you move-up the neck - not on Jap Strats admittedly but they're out there.



A.

[zenguitar]

As I said Andi, sighting the neck will tell a lot to an experienced eye. But it would be near impossible to make a definitive list bearing in mind all the potential issues. So when it comes to general advice we have to stick to basics.

I will freely admit that there have been plenty of times when I've sighted a neck and thought either 'Mmmmmmm.... nice...' or 'Oh SH!T' without being able to put my finger on exactly what I spotted. But it's amazing how often those initial instincts are proved right.

Andy

[Andi]

Absolutely, I was chatting not disagreeing.

A.

[zenguitar]

Yep, me too

Andy

[Guest]

Indeed Darren,

although a decent tech can shim the side gap in the neck pocket quite easily. Our very own Max did this for someone at the Exeter Analogue to Digital show earlier this year.

You are spot on, it really does make a difference tone wise. But because it can be easily addressed I wouldn't consider it a reason to to reject an otherwise decent guitar.

Andy

That's really interesting, I was not aware of side shims. Perhaps there is hope for a tele I have with a roomy neck pocket...cheers Andy

[zenguitar]

You are welcome Darren,

And it's definitely worth a try. Even a decent business card can make a big difference, but in the workshop I keep veneer off-cuts in my scraps bin and they are ideal. When I make an order from LMI or StewMac I always check for specials on damaged veneer sheets or headstock veneers just in case there is something useful there for stock.

Model shops are good for very thin ply, but it's an expensive way to buy. And check out local antiques restorers, they can often let you have offcuts of veneer cheap or free.

Andy

[Frisonic]

So Tony, how are the used guitar stores in Seoul going?

Francis.

[BigElectricCat]

So Tony, how are the used guitar stores in Seoul going?

Francis.

Thanks for asking. Shopping was a mixed experience as a lot of the guitar shops in Seoul are run by complete arses. They wouldn't let us try out the guitars!

"Saturday no! Too busy!"

There was no one else in the shop. We passed by later and they were happily allowing Korean kids to play the guitars.

This happened in a few different places. I may not have been wearing a suit but neither am I a high school kid trying to waste anyone's time. One store even refused to let us try an MIA Strat and sent us to their Squire and Cort stall.

I hate Nagwon arcade. It is allegedly awash with fakes and rejects passed off as the real thing. The dealers go out of their way to give you the impression they do not want your business and if you are daft enough to buy from them they will do their best to rip you off. Even the shops which would let us try the guitars had signs up saying 3 minutes maximum guitar test time. Who buys a guitar on spec? Who parts with serious money after playing the instrument for 3 minutes? Who tolerates being treated like a nuisance?

We tried a Highway One and it was the worst instrument we played all day. It had a really cool finish but felt cheap, sounded dull, and wouldn't hold tuning.

We found a brilliant used shop which only sells Fender Japan stuff. A 2002 Crafted in Japan Strat was almost the best thing we played all day. That guy left us alone with all his stock and an amp for over an hour. I really wanted to do business with him but I couldn't shake the hankering for a new MIA Strat.

I finally found a shop that left me alone to really put a new American Standard through it's paces and I fell in love. It wasn't the color or finish I wanted but I didn't care one bit when I played it. I spent all my bonus but I do not regret it. It is THE ONE. The kids will inherit this guitar if the wife can talk me out of being buried with it. I'm a better guitarist already

Thanks for all the advice you guys gave about checking the used guitars. I have a feeling I'll be making a return visit to the Fender Japan used store before too long...

[Frisonic]

Sounds like you did everything right then! Well done and enjoy your new guitar.