Death of a Liquid Mix...

[Phil Reynolds]

So, I'm assuming the fact that my LM32 sounds a bit like a rain-tree when I shake it means that it's not going to work anymore...

...probably because I've just, after roughly a year-and-a-bit of frequently intermittent frustration, finally snapped and thrown it across my control room. I've endured crashes, driver conflicts, unexplained freezes and Christ knows what else.

It means tha tthere's a hell of a lot of remixing to do as, on the rare occasions it's actually worked, I've used it a lot. That said, I've never - in 25 years - experienced a piece of equipment which has made the act of music-making such relentless and unbridled misery.

Good riddance, and back to Sonalksis and Waves.

[Mixedup]

Shame. Like you said, when it works it's a great set of plug-ins. I think they had difficulty getting it to be stable on every DAW and with every FW chipest while using the same drivers. Hence the complaints and gripes around the web. Have to say, though, mine's been nice and stable on three different machines with three different OSs now. Lucky me

[Dave B]

Another vote for the 'it always just worked' club. That was on WinXP/PC and various flavours of OSX/Mac.

Me, I've never found a device that has made the process of getting things to sound good with so little effort that has a similar ease/joy factor!

Ah well..

[Phil Reynolds]

You jammy pair!

Actually, I've just replugged it, and the flight appears to have hurt it not a bit.

That said, it's still flaky as buggery...

[Mixedup]

Well, I've had it working on XP Pro 32, Win 7 Ultimate 64 and a couple of versions of OSX. What system are you using Phil, and what DAW. It can be a sod to set up but maybe we can help get your setup more stable?

[Phil Reynolds]

Um...lemme see...

Win XPSP3 with Mike Senior's tweaks and Cubase 5. I'm using a version 2pointsomething LiquidMix driver - ver 3.0 just doesn't work at all on my system, and the 1.5 driver on the CD Rom which came with it just won't install at all. It was a nightmare tracking down LM drivers which would work. Main PC is a quite old dual-core Athlon 2.4, networked to a a single-core 2.4hz PC running FX teleport.

Also running the waves V8 Mercury pack - which is the reason I forked out for Cubase 5 - downloaded the demos (after experiencing it on a friend's setup) and they wouldn't work with SX3 - otherwise, I'd still be using it. Bit of a Luddite. With expensive tastes

Not sure I could have lived without Kramer MTX, though - and, tbh, the Waves sales deals were simply too good to miss...

[Mixedup]

Hmmmm... not sure I can help then. I've been using it with C4/5 on XP SP3 happily. Have you tried installing a different FW card? It might be that that would make the difference... in fact, come to think of it, have you got anything else on the FW buss? Seems to be a bit temperamental about that. Also, is the firmware up to date?

Yeah, the Waves stuff still gets plenty of use here. Though less than the Brainworx and UA if I'm honest.

[Gary_W]

Almost certainly a long shot as I'm probably one of the few that didn't know but.....

Mine used to regularly cause BSODs.... I then discovered the power supply in the box that clearly was not needed to make it work as I was bus powering it.

I plugged in the PSU and it cheered up no end My only theory is that it pulls a fair bit of juice and, of it's close to the edge, the PC doesn't like it up it.... The PSU sorts this out.

[SafeandSound Mastering]

Personally I think LM has largely been superceded by the many native excellent software plugins now available.I have one currently gathering dust because it's sonic ability is completely destroyed by many other plug ins. It is better than most stock plugins that come with DAW's. But it is old school in terms of digital emulating analogue.

SafeandSound Mastering
music mastering

[Mixedup]

I don't agree. There are a few great emulations for the LM, and quite a few less great ones IMO. But that's always going to be the case with a convolution based system, just as it is with reverbs: the system's only as good as what you put in it. The same is true of Nebula, for which there are some great third-party libraries. The technology is not dead at all... in fact it seems to be scalable, to take advantage of increased DSP power availability. The actual process of 'sampling' gear, particularly dynamics processors, is tricky to do well. Believe me, I've tried, with varying degrees of success!

On the LM, I've found some of the EQs very usable, particularly HF shelving. The compression I generally like less, but even then, the general sound of the analogue electronics is there, even if it's not identical to the model that was sampled. Thing is, you really have to spend plenty of time sorting the wheat from the chaff with LM. And it all depends what you're trying to achieve. It's certainly not a tool for surgical EQ.

But then the whole thing costs as little as some single 'high end' plugins!

[RonnieG]

Um...lemme see...

Win XPSP3 with Mike Senior's tweaks and Cubase 5. I'm using a version 2pointsomething LiquidMix driver - ver 3.0 just doesn't work at all on my system, and the 1.5 driver on the CD Rom which came with it just won't install at all. It was a nightmare tracking down LM drivers which would work. Main PC is a quite old dual-core Athlon 2.4, networked to a a single-core 2.4hz PC running FX teleport.

.

Mines Rock solid on Cubase 6 @ 64 bit in Win 7.

Phil.... do you have an Nvidia chipset on your Mobo by any chance?. That was killing mine 3 systems back.

....and yes prior to 64bit . I had to use an older 2.something beta driver off their website.

Love mine......if it don't sound like the original gear....... I wouldn't know.
Ignorance is bliss.

[Phil Reynolds]

Ah. Will check to see if it's an Nvidia card - not sure. Will dig the PSU out, as well - maybe the buss-powered thing is an issue...

...and I don't think the Firewire thing is an issue - my interface is FW, but I'm actually running the LM from an additional FW card (with TI chipset) installed in the main PC.

[Dave B]

Personally I think LM has largely been superceded by the many native excellent software plugins now available.

ROFLMAO!!!

The only people I know who claim to have plug ins as good as the LM are people who own both the LM and the UAD2 - and that isn't native! And they still use the LM! Remember, the LM is a convolution based device - hence the need for heavy external DSP to handle the crunching. Perfect it may not be (but the only real problem is the bass issue), but it does give you the sound of the devices that it emulates. I mean, which other eq plugin lets you build an eq that has, say, SSL, Amek, Pultec, etc in a single instance?

[SafeandSound Mastering]

I suggest worrying less about what people say and listen more, coming to your own conclusions is much more valuable.I have a few plugins that would probably melt the LM box if I tried to run 2 instances.

For sure you need to sort wheat from the chaff mixedup, agreed. The ones I used to use I have found replacements for.Such as those that take advantage of oversampling and that have better stereo imaging characteristics. Liquid mix across a stereo master bus is "instant small sound" if you listen carefully. It is good and cheap, but good is not good enough for me personally. I want the best possible sounding DSP I can get. That takes serious and long commitment in listening hours.

SafeandSound Mastering

[Mixedup]

I think you're misunderstanding me. I think there are some fantastic plug-ins available, both native and DSP-powered. I think there are some poor (to the point of being unusable) emulations in the Liquid Mix. There's also a handful of perfectly good ones — mostly EQs. Some do something that no other plug-in seems to me to do (or to do well at any rate), even if not as well as the hardware that it's 'image' is based one.

As you'll know if you've read my other posts, I've done quite extensive comparative listening with a range of plug-ins and hardware. I have a UAD2 (and 1s for that matter), a Powercore and a Liquid Mix, as well as a range of great native plug-ins from Waves, Brainworx, Slate, Sonnox, IK and various others. I wouldn't pick out any of the Liquid Mix emulations as my favourite plug-ins. Eg compare all the various SSL bus-compressor emulations out there, and throw in some hardware too. LM doesn't come close to best to my ears (either subjectively or in terms of accuracy). But then none of the plug-ins came close to doing the same thing as the hardware I was using alongside them. The same is true of 1176s. And many more.

However, there's a handful of really good 'models' (for want of a better word — tweaked sets of multiple impulse responses, I guess) in there. Mostly the EQs, and some compressors to add a certain analogue character. I've nearly always found that they don't do quite the same compression job, while still adding that character, though, so I tend to use them in conjunction with other clean-sounding devices to complete the job. The vast majority of the library, I've not got on with that well.

Would I use the LM compressors on the bus? Not usually. First, where practicable, if using a bus compressor I'll tend to use outboard. If using plug-ins for the job, I have other favourites. And as you say, with the LM there's often something going on with the stereo field (though that's something I've observed in some algorithmic plug-ins too, including from some very reputable, long-established companies!).

That said, remember that this is intended as a mixing tool first and foremost. (hence the name!) And most of the elements I use in a mix are mono sources... so stereo imaging matters not a jot there! Combine a LM with nice precision EQ (eg DDMF LP10), a clean-sounding compressor, some nice reverbs and delays, and one or two other tools, and you really do have most of the tools you need to do a decent mix. Can you get better? Sure. Can you get better for a couple of hundred quid (which is what these cost second hand)? Not sure you can.

What I *don't* like about the LM (apart from the stability issues, and the stereo imaging that you said about... and the number of useless models in there) is the GUI, where every plug-in in your mix looks the same and the mix thus begins to get a little awkward to navigate.

The "best possible DSP" is an interesting point. As I say, LM isn't even technically the best thing at what it does. Nebula 3 *can* use far more power and do much more accurate emulations. I was distinctly unimpressed with the earlier versions. But I've experimented with 'capturing' some hardware, including a nice Vari-mu compressor. To get it sounding good takes a hell of a lot of processing power, as you increase the number of kernels used, (a few instances of the best things I did ate up most of the power in my quad-core/12GB machine!), and several hours of the sampling process. But it can be done. Unfortunately, it's also a rather user-unfriendly system at the moment. But I still think there's life in this technology, and all the more so as processing power increases. That said, some of the off-the-shelf third-party libraries for Nebula 3 that are now available aren't bad at all. As with the LM, most of the bundled stuff is pretty poor.

[Gary_W]

So (if it's not too much of a thread diversion?) what are the 'best' Liquid Mix compressors and EQ's and what are the stinkers?

I know this is an 'opinion' thing and invites 150 people to tell me to use my ears (point taken) but....

The LM drowns you with the choice of 40 compressors and 20 EQ's and (due to the price) there will be a lot of these out there in the hands of the inexperienced / those who have never seen or heard the things that it is supposed to be emulating It tends to mean (for me) that I'll go with the LA2A on either here or the one that comes with NI complete and tweak to taste Whilst this works for my little projects, I could possibly do better but get so little time to actually record and mix with life getting in the way that guidance would help...

With this in mind, a shortlist of great EQ's and compressors to try in LM for vocals, bass and guitars would be very helpful from all those experienced folks here If it's more appropriate to start a new thread, please accept my apologies and I'll do so

[Phil Reynolds]

Meh. Who cares whether it's OT or not? I'm chuffed I started a thread which has become interesting!

As far as EQ goes, I like the Massive passive emu (in fact it's the only one I bother with, but it's certainly nice). As for comps, no idea how they compare to the real deal, but I tend to go for the 1176, Slam and Distressor models and the LA2A for bass.

Must try the Alesis 3630 sometime...

[dadking]

+1 for the massive passive

[Billum]

Yep, love the LM Massive Passive EQ (Huge Tube) - they capture the lovely smooth top end nicely.

On compressors, I like the Meat Pie (Pye 84 4060) for raw character, or the Viking 2 (Tube Tech LCA 2B) for a bit more sophistication.

For LA2A, 1176, 33609 & SSL emus I tend to prefer the UAD versions, although if I run out of UAD power I'll use the LM ones on less critical channels.

[narcoman]

Personally I think LM has largely been superceded by the many native excellent software plugins now available.I have one currently gathering dust because it's sonic ability is completely destroyed by many other plug ins. It is better than most stock plugins that come with DAW's. But it is old school in terms of digital emulating analogue.

SafeandSound Mastering
music mastering

Old school. Not really - it's still way ahead in terms of tech. Most "modelled" plugins are circuit models. This is the equivalent;end of convolved reverbs! Unstable - agreed. Bag of annoying poop in that department and as far as unworkable latency etc etc, but as far as sound goes... nothing else in plugin land has come close..... the massive passive against UAD... no competition. LM wins by several linear miles!!.... Faint praise as that may be as it really was a fairly unworkable piece.... but it did sound good!!

[SafeandSound Mastering]

nothing else in plugin land has come close

The we shall remain to have differing opinion on that matter.
Nowt more to add.

SafeandSound Mastering

[Mixedup]

nothing else in plugin land has come close

The we shall remain to have differing opinion on that matter.
Nowt more to add.

SafeandSound Mastering

+1. I recently did a blind test with hardware and various software of the SSL bus compressor. The LM was by no means the best. As I say, though, some things are excellent. But not all.

[narcoman]

any short coming are down to the sampling of the hardware equipment. Do it right and it's right up there. Same as the sintefex (sp?) system was too. Is it BETTER than other plugins? Debatable. Is it closer to the hardware? Yes if sampled right.... prime examples are the UAD equivalents.

[. . . Delete This User . . .]

i too did hardware comparison tests.

UAD in some cases sounds "nicer" and is always more intuitive to use thanks to the GUI ,

however, NICER, does NOT mean more authentic/accurate