Kef 104aB Still relevant?

[vinyl_junkie]

Friend of mine in Italy got a set of these and he hasn't stopped talking about how much he likes them, to be honest I don't have much experience with vintage speakers but I was looking for a set of used speakers about that size to play disco and funk vinyls on when I have friends round, accuracy is not paramount but a pleasant non fatiguing sound is as is a good bottom end/kick.

Am I mad considering speakers of this age? They still seem to have their loyal fans and still well priced on the used market (Around £100-200 depending on condition)

[James Perrett]

You're not mad looking at older speakers but I probably wouldn't go for the KEF's for the sort of thing you want as the KEF's are designed more for accuracy than impressiveness. I'd maybe look at a pair of JBL's for something impressive sounding. Older speakers can't handle quite as much power as newer ones so you may need to be a little careful if you like it really loud. However, I've used my old Tannoy Berkeleys as foldback for a live punk band playing in the control room so there are some models that will go very loud.

James.

[fay spook]

If they are in good nick the price isnt too bad. Dont forget you are drive units that are worth a lot on their own. These were state of the art domestic drivers in their day. They are getting old but KEFs are still loved and you will be able to fix the crossover but not the drivers. Yes they might be more "accurate" sounding than some but they will still sound relaxed to modern standards. The racetrack lower unit is an ABR, so you effectively have a reflex system. You wont have the same kick as an infinite baffle. Also speakers from 40 years ago were in a different world, the funk records might have been around but systems were pretty different. There was low low bass but some of that would have been warps

[ef37a]

I seem to recall that the Gales were the kickass speakers of the day?

These: http://www.vintagegale.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2&Itemid=8

Dave.

[Mixedup]

I have a few sets of KEFs around, including a pair of 104s and 104ABs. Really, really nice speakers. Maybe a bit over-smooth on the bottom end for what you're doing. They use the T27 tweeter, which is really nice - same as in the Rogers LS3/5a that was used by the BBC and everyone keeps banging on about. You need a decent-sized room to get the best out of them, though. Rotel RA611 or 612 amps seem to make a nice partner for them.

You might want something a little more recent if you're expecting a nice tight bass sound, but they do sound gorgeous nonetheless! If buying second hand, it's not crazy. Get the 104AB instead of the plain 104, though, if only for the accessible uses for the tweeters. Expect to pay £100-150 for a pair in decent nick including stands; and make sure that the rubber around the drivers isn't perishing.

[vinyl_junkie]

I have a few sets of KEFs around, including a pair of 104s and 104ABs. Really, really nice speakers. Maybe a bit over-smooth on the bottom end for what you're doing. They use the T27 tweeter, which is really nice - same as in the Rogers LS3/5a that was used by the BBC and everyone keeps banging on about. You need a decent-sized room to get the best out of them, though. Rotel RA611 or 612 amps seem to make a nice partner for them.

You might want something a little more recent if you're expecting a nice tight bass sound, but they do sound gorgeous nonetheless! If buying second hand, it's not crazy. Get the 104AB instead of the plain 104, though, if only for the accessible uses for the tweeters. Expect to pay £100-150 for a pair in decent nick including stands; and make sure that the rubber around the drivers isn't perishing.

Great There are a set on ebay at the moment but the guy wants too much, was tempted to offer him 200 but I've seen them sell for so much less and would need stands on top.

Most recent "home" speakers I had were B&W DM-602 S3's and Naim Credo's which belonged to a friend and had to give back.
Downstairs in the living room I have cheap Tannoy M1's which I'd love to replace with Kef 103.2's (I've seen them so cheap in the past it's criminal)
And I use Mackie HR-624 mk1's in the studio

I'll drive the "fun" speakers with a fairly modern solid state Talk Electronics amp (around 80 wpc RMS into 8ohms) The mixer will be a old 1976 Bozak DJ mixer as for needles I need to replace those too, currently using Grado's which I'm not happy with and stuck between the Denon DL-110 or Audio Technica AT-440MLa which is a cart I know...Annny way lol

[ef37a]

I well remember drooling over a review (HFN) of the KEF R105s.

Now a pair of those in a nice room.....!!!

Dave.

[vinyl_junkie]

I well remember drooling over a review (HFN) of the KEF R105s.

Now a pair of those in a nice room.....!!!

Dave.

Out of interest changing the subject slightly can you still buy those kind of stands for the Kef's? I remember the old Epos speakers also had those kind of metal frame stands as did some ATC's, they preff need to be at head height though.

[fay spook]

At the risk of being branded an audiofool......

Grado carts can sound better with higher than the usual 47kohm load on your phono pre-amp. Try up to 100Kohm.

You can still pick up the open frame metal stands, light but rigid is the description. Quadraspire do a modern version of the light but rigid theme. I have heard them and they work.

http://www.quadraspire.co.uk/speaker-stands/speaker-stands-loudspeaker-stands-isolation-supports.html#qx600

Looking for the metal stands you can try ebay for EPOS ES-14 stands (I've got some but I also have the 14s so they arent for sale!!) or Linn Sara stands

http://www.toffsandtinks.com/shop/linn-sara-loudspeaker-stands/prod_101.html

You really need the stand size to match the speaker, height wise obviously but also the top plate. ATC still do stands but they are heavier. I found heavier stands worked best with thin wall BBC type speakers and lighter ones with the likes of EPOS etc.

T27s were used in all LS3/5As, it was part of the licence spec. The tweeters in the KEF105s can leak/lose their ferrofluid and sound very plasticy. Check before you buy.

[vinyl_junkie]

At the risk of being branded an audiofool......

Grado carts can sound better with higher than the usual 47kohm load on your phono pre-amp. Try up to 100Kohm.

You can still pick up the open frame metal stands, light but rigid is the description. Quadraspire do a modern version of the light but rigid theme. I have heard them and they work.

http://www.quadraspire.co.uk/speaker-stands/speaker-stands-loudspeaker-stands-isolation-supports.html#qx600

Looking for the metal stands you can try ebay for EPOS ES-14 stands (I've got some but I also have the 14s so they arent for sale!!) or Linn Sara stands

http://www.toffsandtinks.com/shop/linn-sara-loudspeaker-stands/prod_101.html

You really need the stand size to match the speaker, height wise obviously but also the top plate. ATC still do stands but they are heavier. I found heavier stands worked best with thin wall BBC type speakers and lighter ones with the likes of EPOS etc.

T27s were used in all LS3/5As, it was part of the licence spec. The tweeters in the KEF105s can leak/lose their ferrofluid and sound very plasticy. Check before you buy.

Thanks for the info Fay. I didn't know about the tweeters on the 105, I know the Mission 782's also suffered from this sort of issue but didn't know the KEF T52 was prone to it.

Re Grado it's not the sound that bothers me really it's the induced hum which seems to be very common on the Prestige line.

[fay spook]

That's OK, the trouble is my head is full of this tripe.

Yes the Grados can pick up hum but I have always been OK with mine. My cartridge answer came with a London (Decca) Super Gold. Not for DJs and not for the faint hearted either. It took a couple of nights to set up but the Decca does things no other cart does. And no it doesnt chew up records and it can ride warps- dont listen to internet chat. I will shut up now.

[James Perrett]

Decca cartridges are a whole breed apart. I used to use an FFSS for a few years - must get around to getting the stylus checked as it would be nice to try it again.

James.

PS - I always thought Grado liked a lower impedance of around 22k ohms - or is that just the older ones?

[fay spook]

The 100K load is to bring in a bit of bite to the sound as cheaper Grados have a great mid but can soften a little up top. The top end modern ones have a very low internal impedance and sound better so any loading would degrade the sound. I really cant remember what was said about loading back in the day (but I should!) so I will happily accept the lower loading idea.

[vinyl_junkie]

The 100K load is to bring in a bit of bite to the sound as cheaper Grados have a great mid but can soften a little up top.

Spot on description

[vinyl_junkie]

Got me a set of these bad boys

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&rt=nc&nma=true&item=180923803288&si=Va9weyD9hh%252B1R8dzFJ3scwp6Wdw%253D&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D5%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D490920239018541011&cmd=ViewItem&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

The Grado hum is more prominent on my system as everything is a bit too close for comfort (For them any way), mixer near TT's, amp near TT's and so on

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vEJYo12Dh0

The styluses are well worn and been like that for months now but can't make my mind up whether to replace or get something else

[ef37a]

"The Grado hum is more prominent on my system as everything is a bit too close for comfort (For them any way), mixer near TT's, amp near TT's and so on"

I cannot understand why a balanced input "pre" pre amp has not been developed for magnetic pickups? The things are an inherently balanced source.

Many, many years ago I had a Rogers 12w per ch all valve rig and there was not enough gain for a Goldring G800E and so I built a BC109 10dB lifter in a baccy tin and put it inside the turntable plinth. Not only did it give me the lift I needed and cure valve hiss it also gave a nice low Z source and reduced hum. Had there been NE5534s about then I might have made it balanced!

Dave.

[vinyl_junkie]

Don't quote me on this but I'm sure Stanton made in the 70's or 80's a balanced phono box, when I used to look for NOS Stanton styluses (680, 681, 881s) I would sometimes come across these boxes in America. They were made for broadcast/radio stations and studios form memory. I seem to also recall that they had balanced outputs on XLR's too, can't remember if they also sported standard RCA's

If I were to use a Denon DL-110 I'm pretty sure I'd need a step up transformer even if it is a high output MC it's still too low for my MM stage imo.

There is a guy on the internet who got hold of me to say he is using the same mixer as me but with the 110 and says he has no issues but I'm not so sure... What I was surprised with was the back cueing performance of the 110! It was better than the Stanton carts of the day and it's not even made for it!
The Bozak of that period would of been been suited to the standard pro carts of the time such as the Stanton 680's with their 5.5mv output so not sure how well the 110 would fair.
I mean the Grado is 4mv and I'd like a tiny bit more output from it. Dance 12's are no problem but a lot of older vinyl isn't cut as loud (Thank god!)

I know the AT440MLa sound and I like it but not sure how well it would be suited to light back cueing.
I know a guy in Mexico who DJ's with them but on Thorens TD-125's and he says you have to be very light handed... mind the Thorens springs probs don't help.
His mixes always sound great with them

[vinyl_junkie]

Ok sorry but I think I'm in love hahah



I only just unpacked them and stuck em on the living room coffee table, hooked up my amp and a CD player just to test they worked ok before setting them up properly and man what a lovely sound!
I love the depth you get and they seem quite accurate as a studio monitor too.

Can't wait to get some proper stands and stick em in my room

[Hugh Robjohns]

I cannot understand why a balanced input "pre" pre amp has not been developed for magnetic pickups? The things are an inherently balanced source.

They have. Several high end and/or pro-oriented companies have made balanced phonograph cartridge preamps in the past,and some step-up transformers for moving coil pickups effectively provide balanced inputs and bal to unbal conversion. Try a google search for balanced phonograph preamplifier. The reason it's not a popular or common technique is because of greater cost, greater complexity, and negligible benefit. A balanced preamplifier will only help minimise E-M interference on the cabling. It won't help if the pickup is sitting in a magnetic field.

H

[vinyl_junkie]

Hugh (Or any one else for that matter) can you recommend a good step up transformer for the Denon DL-110 MC cart to go into my MM stage?

I was looking at Sowter transformers but the choice is a bit confusing for me

Here is the schematic for my MM input card in my mixer

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa272/vinyl_junkie_2007/Bozak_CMA-10-2DL_Schematic_RIAA_Phono_Input_Amp.jpg

Output impedance on the Denon apparently is 160 Ohms, reported output is 1.6mv but apparently it's more 2.2mv

Being a HOMC I read it's meant to be ideally used on MM stages (47k load) whether this is bull I don't know

[James Perrett]

You shouldn't need a transformer with a high output moving coil cartridge. I guess they probably put more turns on the coil in the cartridge. However, most moving magnet cartridges are around 5mV output at a reference velocity of 5cm/s so, if the output of your cartridge is specified at the same velocity, you may find that it is a little quieter than a normal moving magnet cartridge.

James.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Hugh (Or any one else for that matter) can you recommend a good step up transformer for the Denon DL-110 MC cart to go into my MM stage?

Outside my sphere of knowledge I'm afraid -- I just use the MC input of my preamp!

But the nominal 1.6mV is only 10dB down on 5mV, so it's not a huge loss. Most step-up transformers offer at least 20dB of gain (1:10 transformer), and many are far more, which would be likely to overload your preamp.

Stevens & Billington make a 1:5 ratio transformer that provides 14dB of gain which is closer to your needs.

Hugh

[vinyl_junkie]

Thank you for all the replies