i am on a tight budget and want to start making good live recordings of all kinds of acoustic sources like a big orchestra in a church and blues and jazz bands in a small cafe using Blumlein stereo.
Is it better to start with 2 Golden Age R1 MK3 or is it better to start buying 2 CAD M179 ?
PS: I'd like a neutral but warm sound with detail and ambient information of the live performance.
To achieve the best Blumlein stereo Blumlein (I'm talking about you Vincent) will need Blumlein speaker system. According to Ted Fletcher only Blumlein speaker system can deliver the sense of depth which conventional two speaker system will never be able to reproduce.
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound...
(But generally posting my own personal views and not necessarily those of SOS, the company or the magazine!)
In my world, things get less strange when I read the manual...
Re: Blumlein orchestra recording with: CAD M179 or Golden Age R1 MK3, what mike to buy ??
I am looking for two figure 8 mic's Blumlein recording. It's interesting to know more about airSOUND. But i need recordings that are compatible with normal stereo (2 speakers).
Can you (or some one else) give me advice about buying the CAD M179 or Golden Age R1 MK3 for this way of recording?
Ribbons are going to give the warm (natural) but detailed sound character you seek, but coincident fig-8s don't work well in every venue because the stereo acceptance angle is narrow (90 degrees) and so tends to force relatively distant placement, while the rear pickup makes for a rather looser perspective too.
The cads are good mics, and the variable pattern affords much more flexibility, but the tonality is different to a ribbon.
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound...
(But generally posting my own personal views and not necessarily those of SOS, the company or the magazine!)
In my world, things get less strange when I read the manual...
Re: Blumlein orchestra recording with: CAD M179 or Golden Age R1 MK3, what mike to buy ??
The 1st replay: you make is info i already know. My problem is, are the GA R1 MK3's to noisy or to fragile for live recording?
The 2nd replay: i really don't know what you'r talking about, your replay does not make sense to me and i get a feeling that you don's take my question serious.
Blumlein wrote:are the GA R1 MK3's to noisy or to fragile for live recording?
Plenty of people use ribbons for live concerts. Provided you take care and sensible precautions there shouldn't be any trouble. Can't comment on the noise aspect. I've not used the R1 and the manufacturer doesn't seem to publish self noise figures... But most active ribbons are reasonably quiet.
i get a feeling that you don's take my question serious.
I have taken your question very seriously and offered what I hope is helpful advice. I can't take the air sound technology seriously, but that doesn't affect what you're trying to do.
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound...
(But generally posting my own personal views and not necessarily those of SOS, the company or the magazine!)
In my world, things get less strange when I read the manual...
Re: Blumlein orchestra recording with: CAD M179 or Golden Age R1 MK3, what mike to buy ??
thank you for your help, I think i'll start with the GA and since i use 2 figure 8 on top of each other in 90 degree (Blumlein) i have a stereo angle of 80 + 80 = 160 degree. The only thing is that the L and R channel are the wrong way on the back side. But this is no problem since this is only used for ambiance reverb and applause.
Later on i'll buy the CAD M179 to be used with lage orchestra's in blumlein configuration on stage or other configurations as support mic's on stage that i'll mix mono with the stereo blumlein tracks.
Sorry for my misunderstandig regarding the "air sound" thing. I thought your replay was addressed to me, sorry...
Fwiw, AKG C414s can do a very nice job in a Blumlein pair as well (and also as the S (and M, also) mic in an M/S pair).
Heheh, that "airsound" speaker looks like an M/S mic array in reverse, although the concept does bring to mind the lovely-sounding DCM Time Window speakers from the 70s.
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound...
(But generally posting my own personal views and not necessarily those of SOS, the company or the magazine!)
In my world, things get less strange when I read the manual...
Re: Blumlein orchestra recording with: CAD M179 or Golden Age R1 MK3, what mike to buy ??
Blumlein wrote:since i use 2 figure 8 on top of each other in 90 degree (Blumlein) i have a stereo angle of 80 + 80 = 160 degree.
Think you might want revisit the theory of the Blumlein mic array... Or look up the term 'stereo recording angle'.
The classic arrangement with fig-8s at a mutual angle of 90 degrees provides a stereo recording angle of 90 degrees at the front, and a second 90 SRA (left-right reversed, as you say) at the rear -- although the rear angle is normally discounted for most applications, comparisons and discussions relating to alternative mic arrays because it doesn't affect the image of the main sound source.
You might find this paper by Michael Williams useful reading on stereo recording angles, and how they vary with polar pattern, mutual angle and mic spacing.
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound...
(But generally posting my own personal views and not necessarily those of SOS, the company or the magazine!)
In my world, things get less strange when I read the manual...
Re: Blumlein orchestra recording with: CAD M179 or Golden Age R1 MK3, what mike to buy ??
If you specifically want to do Blumlein recording you might want to look at one of the stereo ribbon mics on the market. It sounds as though the Royer SF12 might be out of your budget, but there are similar mics available from the likes of Stellar and Prodipe. Setting up a Blumlein array with two separate mics can be a bit of a pain by comparison. And hopefully the two mics in a stereo ribbon will be well matched, which might not be the case for two cheap mono ribbons bought separately.
I'd buy two of the M179s...
You can change the pickup patterns, which makes then very flexible. And they sound good.
You don't need lots of clean gain on your preamp, which with many ribbons, you need.
They sound lush on Omni. Spaced Omni on orchestra very nice...
Be aware of the upper treble boost on the CADs, be prepared to EQ the highs down on playback.
I'd second some serious study on angles, Bumlein, stereo techniques, advantages and disadvantages of them all.
i see that you do recordings using the M179, nice website! The GA R1 MK3 are active ribbons so there is no gain problem. But it's nice to here of your good experience with the M179's. Every time i think i'll know what to buy and it still keep switching from the GA ribbens to the M179 CAD's. The CAD's are good and not expensive and multi pattern and come in flight case with cable etc. I think you are right. I'll go for the CAD's first.
PS: Do you have experience with the Presonus Firestudio Project as interface?
I'm with Guy on this and I'd go for the M-179s so you have the flexibility of multiple patterns. However good any one method is there will be situations where it isn't the best choice for all sorts of reasons, but including size of room, size of ensemble, audience noise, too much or too little localisation of sources; you name it, it all has an influence. If you're recording in Blumlein and it's not going well you can just reset your mikes and do it in ORTF or another format that gives a better result.
I'd just add that investing in good stands so you can put the mikes wherever you like and having plenty of decent (not esoteric, just good quality) cable so you can record and monitor in good positions is probably as important as the recording method you use.
I'm just curious if you've already made some recordings using crossed figure 8's, or if your desire is based more on theory.
If it's the latter case, I would urge that you borrow some mic's and get a feel for things before committing money.
I have heard a number of the very inexpensive stereo ribbon mic's, and have been surprised at how good some of them are! You still need a decent preamp and/or something like the Cloudlifters.
Sorry if I've misunderstood anything from your post.
I have made some recordings with a M-Audio usb interface and 2 SP B3's of an orchestra. I had to eq some high out of the mix and i've made a soft slope form 400HZ to 80HZ upwards (6db) to make up for the low end loss if you are like me max 10 meters from the instruments. But it sounded nice in the Blumleine configuration. The stereo image was even better than someone else recording it with 10 AKG 414. My problem was i could not get high enough, but now i can go up to 5 meters. So that should be ok now.
There is much to say about the M179, it sounds good (poorman 414) but not as warm as a ribbon mic. You can do more with the multi pattern of the M179. On the other hand, i still have the 2 SP B3's with multi pattern and they preform reasonable good (not as good as a CAD M179). So with this in mind i can buy the ribbon's for the sound and still be able to use multi pattern condensers if needed.
Regarding the mic pre amps / interface, i am thinking of buying the Presonus Firestudio Project. This should be a good budget start...
I've no experience with the Presonus Firestudio Project. I've used Mackie's 1640 original firewire interface (Barely OK), the stereo inputs on various Macs, (OK and eminently useable), the Delta 1010, (good) and now a Fireface 800 (pretty darn good).
I don't regard the 179 as a poor man's 414! I've compared the two and I like both, but overall I prefer the 179. Heresy, I know.
With regard to warmth, I think that's more to do with different stereo mic techniques, mic-placement, choice of pickup pattern (like soft cardioid) and mixing, rather than condenser/ribbon or the preamp / interface.
