"Specialist Audio PC Vendors won't touch W8 new interface..."?

[alexis]

Hi - In the Dec 12 PC Notes on W8, Martin Walker writes:

... while at least three specialist audio PC vendors claim they won’t touch its new interface with a bargepole until they absolutely have no choice.

I believe some of the posters here are reps (or owners? - sorry!) of some audio PC companies ... just wondering if they might be some of the ones Mr. Walker is referring to? I've seen some comments in older threads about the W8 interface, but don't recall coming across statements as definitive as that.

Thanks -

[robinv]

On behalf of Rain UK and Rain USA here's my answer to that one:
Rain Uk's Windows 8 audio performance testing youtube vid - I share my views on the interface towards the end of the vid.

Or if you want the quick version - yeah, i like it

[onesecondglance]

perhaps the more pertinent question is how many audio interfaces have W8 drivers yet.

until that's "the majority", then why would an audio PC mfr supply a product that won't work with most of their customers' gear?

fwiw, i have a Surface running W8 RT, and it's very good on a touchscreen. can't imagine it being all that useful as a DAW platform, but it does what MS set out to do very well.

[Pete Kaine]

Err, not directly. From a stability and backend point of view it works well in most cases (if the drivers are there) and we've got it set up as an option on all systems we sell althrough public uptake hasn't exactly been astounding. I'm just not a huge fan personally from an user experience point of view and I await with interest to see what Ballmer is going to do with it now Sinofsky has been booted; as by all accounts the GUI changes were forced through by Sinofsky against a lot of peoples wishes.

In balance I'm also not a huge fan of linux but my media server and laptop both have various installs of that running... whatever gets the job done with as little fuss as possible.

[robinv]

perhaps the more pertinent question is how many audio interfaces have W8 drivers yet.

until that's "the majority", then why would an audio PC mfr supply a product that won't work with most of their customers' gear?

Well i'm yet to find an interface with Windows 7 drivers that didn't also work fine with Windows 8 - most manufacturers have said the same, in fact i can't think of any who have said otherwise. I used the Windows 7 drivers for the UR28M that i used in my testing - Steinberg have recently added "Windows 8" to the driver compatibility specs without actually updating the driver at all....

[TAFKAT]

I believe some of the posters here are reps (or owners? - sorry!) of some audio PC companies ... just wondering if they might be some of the ones Mr. Walker is referring to?

Hey Alexis,

I suspect one of the DAW builders Martin is referring to is me, and I am not at all concerned about being on record publicly, I have stated it clearly on numerous forums already - I won't be touching it with a barge pole for any of my professional DAW solutions until all avenues with Win7 OEM are exhausted , i.e M.S pull availability, which from what I understand is not going to happen as the Corporate sector will also not touch it with a barge pole either

All of this hyperventilating about how we all need to get jiggly with the new UI, etc, is absolutely bollocks IMO , in short if Windows 8's so called performance advantages do not outweigh Windows 7 by a substantial and measurable amount , its not worth navigating to an O.S that simply has some bolted on overlay UI designed for tactile surfaces.

Never mind many of us can't stand the whole approach.

Getting back to the performance aspect which is our main focus , my testing across multiple DAWbench tests sessions using 3rd party Plugins and VI's on both Cubase and Sonar , performance is identical using and RME HDSpe AIO which I detailed in a thread at G.S ( easy enough to find if interested ). That's not to say there were no caveats, iLok caused all manners of issues, as did Waves CP. Also , its a minefield depending on what interface is being used by the original poster , again outlined in that thread , results were wide and varied.

Of course the posted results raised the shackles of the Cakewalk community as it placed a question mark on their reports of substantial and measurable performance improvements in W8 over Win7 , also I just finished watching Robins video of his side by side comparison where Win8 bettered Win7 in some of his tests , by a bees dick if that, personally I didn't see it but of course Robins tests are no more/less valuable than any of the others.

In short its pretty simple, I'll continue to deliver what I believe will be the better option for my clients for mission critical environments with the available technologies , and to me that still remains windows 7 , the last thing anyone needs is to navigate potential incompatibilities for zero sum gain in performance.

@ Robin,

I liked the video Btw, very entertaining, had a good laugh in some spots, you've missed ya calling their Bro...

One point re drivers , well its not only drivers Mate, one example - the RME FF400 which has all the boxes ticked for many years will not work under Windows 8, and it has nothing to do with drivers ( I don't think ) as the FF800 works fine, its more to do with firmware /revisions of the controller on the unit.

The FW stack has totally been rewritten again in Win8 , Joy , so without the signed legacy mode driver in Win8 we are going to get more and more FW interfaces that will not work to spec in Win8, mark my words.

That is one minefield I do not want or need to navigate to get some square tiles on a desktop... LOL

Peace

V.C

[TAFKAT]

Just spotted that Martin had listed the G.S thread in the article , so its probably safe to post it here as well.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/762183-my-windows-7-vs-windows-8-dawbench-results.html

V.C

[Martin Walker]

Hi folks!

Hah, I certainly seem to have stirred things up a little with this month's PC Notes column

Yes, Vin was one of the DAW builders I was (obliquely) referring to, although I've spoken to at least two others who privately have very similar opinions. Even in the mainstream PC magazines opinions about Windows 8 remain spread between pure joy through indifference all the way to total disgust.

There can also be a huge difference between “working well with Windows 8” and “working as well with Windows 8 as Windows 7 or even a gnat's whisper better or worse”.

As I wrote in my column, I fully intend to get the hyper-cheap Windows 8 upgrade, but am still not that keen to switch to a touch-screen interface until I have a touch screen to use it with

Yes, Windows 8 can boot even faster than Windows 7, but the latter is plenty fast enough for me as yet, especially since I generally use Sleep mode so can be up and running again in a few seconds.

No worries about posting the link to that GS thread Vin - at least those tests were done in a scientific way that pushed the machine to its limit rather than speculation on the likely increase in performance after measuring any drop in CPU overheads.

Anyone who has gradually loaded an audio project to glitching point (as musicians often do in the real world) will know that the final tally of simultaneous tracks, plug-ins and softsynth voices depends on far more than what any CPU meter is reading

Martin

[robinv]

@ Robin,

I liked the video Btw, very entertaining, had a good laugh in some spots, you've missed ya calling their Bro...

It's one of my favourite things - wish i had more time to do this stuff

One point re drivers , well its not only drivers Mate, one example - the RME FF400 which has all the boxes ticked for many years will not work under Windows 8, and it has nothing to do with drivers ( I don't think ) as the FF800 works fine, its more to do with firmware /revisions of the controller on the unit.

The FW stack has totally been rewritten again in Win8 , Joy , so without the signed legacy mode driver in Win8 we are going to get more and more FW interfaces that will not work to spec in Win8, mark my words.

Yeah, fair enough. I was at pains to point out that these are the results i got with this gear, this interface and these tests - people shouldn't then assume it's all going to be hunky dory for their gear, but it has been looking good so far. Firewire has never really recovered from XP SP3 - don't know what to do about that really. All we can do is try it out and see. I'm not imagining a fast take up of Windows 8.

I will say though that some of the youtube vids out there bashing Windows 8 are simply ridiculous cases of users being idiots. There's one with like nearly a million views called "Windows 8 - it's almost not terrible" or something and the two guys are basically slagging it off simply because they dont know how to use it and make everything look difficult. Personally i've found it easy and enjoyable to work with and i wanted to demonstrate that to somehow counter some of the weirdness out there. But, you know, it's a personal thing - why use something that causes you pain or offence? There's not enough gain in pure performance to make it a no-brainer upgrade - but also there's innovation and improvements that make it attractive (to me at least). So, you know, fill your boots or don't, i'm happy to work with customers to get either route working. There's a lot of chatter about how unfair it is that manufacturers drop support for their hardware, either by not releasing new drivers or by dropping support for old OS's - so it makes some sense that if you're buying a new system you want it to be as up-to-date as possible on both the OS and the audio interface side. Apps are already Windows 8 only and will there come a time when these are attractive enough to push an upgrade - ipad apps such as the Moog and Korg M20 etc for a couple of quid, on your main PC? Hmmm sounds good to me

Anyone who has gradually loaded an audio project to glitching point (as musicians often do in the real world) will know that the final tally of simultaneous tracks, plug-ins and softsynth voices depends on far more than what any CPU meter is reading

Martin

Sure, but all you can do is attempt to show something helpful

[TAFKAT]

I will say though that some of the youtube vids out there bashing Windows 8 are simply ridiculous cases of users being idiots. There's one with like nearly a million views called "Windows 8 - it's almost not terrible" or something and the two guys are basically slagging it off simply because they dont know how to use it and make everything look difficult.

You are watching too much Youtube

I have not bothered watching anything re Win8 on Youtube past your report , and won't be going back there again for Win8 , so I really couldn't care less what people are saying on there to be honest. Trust me Mate, M.S have more issues to navigate with Win8 past some Youtube rants.

I have spoken to a few local colleagues this week who are not in the DAW industry but service gaming/corporate/educational , and the feedback is enlightening to say the least and gels very closely with my overall view. In short , none of them are touching Win8 with a bargepole either, where possible. With brand notebooks where Win8 has been imposed, reports of staff being abused by customers for not having a Win7 option available for the laptop wanting to be purchased and clients walking out without purchasing anything after being informed it was Win8 only.

The simple fact that Sinofsky ( Head of Windows development ) has been sacked so soon after release of Win8 isn't exactly ringing positive bells , IMO they have realised they have a Vista size problem on their hands again. It will never gain the acceptance they hoped on Desktop, nor should it IMO.

Lets hope they wake up to their senses for whatever the next move is.

V.C

[robinv]

You do what you must, but my Windows 8 Phone arrived today and i'm loving it. But i really don't mind what people want to use - if I can get it working right for music then that's all that matters really - no bargepoles, argy-bargy, abuse or stamping of feet required.

[Pete Kaine]

my Windows 8 Phone arrived today and i'm loving it.

Not surprised, its an awesome front end on a phone!

[johnny h]

I will say though that some of the youtube vids out there bashing Windows 8 are simply ridiculous cases of users being idiots.

You are way out of line here. Computers aren't nerd toys anymore, they are consumer items and they simply have to work intuitively. Calling your own customers "idiots" is not a good way to win any friends.

Windows 8 is one step forward and a hundred steps back.

[robinv]

I will say though that some of the youtube vids out there bashing Windows 8 are simply ridiculous cases of users being idiots.

You are way out of line here. Computers aren't nerd toys anymore, they are consumer items and they simply have to work intuitively. Calling your own customers "idiots" is not a good way to win any friends.

Windows 8 is one step forward and a hundred steps back.

Eh? I'm not calling customers idiots, i was referring to some specific (and referenced) youtube videos of apparent "expert bloggers" demonstrating why they hate Windows 8 and they were either being pretty idiotic or deliberately trying to put people off. They were not users grappling with a new OS these were self proclaimed experts. Forgive me but i get upset about bad information. Opinion is one thing but demonstrating how rubbish something is by not knowing which buttons to press is pretty stupid in my opinion. But that's just my opinion and if you don't mind i'll miss out your 100 backward steps and just keep moving forward

[johnny h]

I will say though that some of the youtube vids out there bashing Windows 8 are simply ridiculous cases of users being idiots.

You are way out of line here. Computers aren't nerd toys anymore, they are consumer items and they simply have to work intuitively. Calling your own customers "idiots" is not a good way to win any friends.

Windows 8 is one step forward and a hundred steps back.

Eh? I'm not calling customers idiots, i was referring to some specific (and referenced) youtube videos of apparent "expert bloggers" demonstrating why they hate Windows 8 and they were either being pretty idiotic or deliberately trying to put people off. They were not users grappling with a new OS these were self proclaimed experts. Forgive me but i get upset about bad information. Opinion is one thing but demonstrating how rubbish something is by not knowing which buttons to press is pretty stupid in my opinion. But that's just my opinion and if you don't mind i'll miss out your 100 backward steps and just keep moving forward

You do that. The main designer of Windows 8 got sacked a few weeks after its launch. Hardly a glowing endorsement of the monstrosity they have created. I have kept an open mind about the whole thing, but it is becoming very clear that this is a huge misstep.

[Sabbs]

Hi onesecondglance

Windows 8 RT won't let you install standard Windows 7 based apps on it. Only those that are available from the Windows Store.

So therefore I'd love to see is things like the animoog and the new ipolysix re-platformed so they work as an app on Windows RT.

Thanks

Jon

[TAFKAT]

You do what you must, but my Windows 8 Phone arrived today and i'm loving it. But i really don't mind what people want to use - if I can get it working right for music then that's all that matters really - no bargepoles, argy-bargy, abuse or stamping of feet required.

FWIW - I haven't abused anyone Mate, can't say the same about the Win8 chorus against me tho.

I am pretty much over all of the hyperbole and ventilation coming from that side of the fence that is trying so hard to justify Win8 , without one clear positive to bring to the table over Win7 for DAW use, not one !

As much as you hated the youtube videos that got up your nose, I am pretty much of the same opinion of all the idiotic fluff pieces by so called tech journo's/shills trying to put down any of us that are not of the same opinion. Its always the same B.S about us being sacred of change, etc, and how we need to give it a chance, etc.

Why ?

I haven't seen OSX attempt such an idiotic change in UI , Ubuntu tried to an extent and lost large numbers of its core user base, the head of Windows was shown the door , and anyone who believes its not over forcing metro onto the desktop is delusional IMO.

So enjoy your W8 phone, Hell I may even have a look see when my Droid contact expires soon, and knock yourself out with Win8 on your DAW offerings, you may just corner the market there , I am not expecting to loose any clients or sleep.



V.C

[robinv]

without one clear positive to bring to the table over Win7 for DAW use, not one

(groan) just to drag it out for one more beating, here's what i like:
I prefer the look/feel of the desktop over Win7 - w7 feels old and draggy in comparison
I prefer the start screen to the start menu
I like the new task manager
I like the detail in copying files
I like the ribbon on open folders
I like the way new devices appear when attached
I like that my network printer just worked
I like the admin task menu
I like the potential of "touch"
I love how my desktop is separate from the busyness of the start menu - i no longer need shortcuts all over my desktop, i now have somewhere else to put those things - good management.
The Start screen is not as editable as i'd like it to be but i've already found an app for that

All these things feed into my ability to use the system as a DAW and creative tool and i'm certainly not turning my nose at the performance improvements, however small. So yeah, cool

[TAFKAT]

(groan) just to drag it out for one more beating, here's what i like:

I prefer the look/feel of the desktop over Win7 - w7 feels old and draggy in comparison.

Double Groan - Wheres the facepalm emoticon when I need it.

I prefer ..., snip...

I like ..... snip

Snore !

I am not going to bore you with my laundry list of likes and preference.

- i no longer need shortcuts all over my desktop, i now have somewhere else to put those things - good management.

Who the hell has shortcuts all over the desktop ?

Far better app launches around for those inclined.

Is that seriously the best you can do ?

All these things feed into my ability to use the system as a DAW and creative tool and i'm certainly not turning my nose at the performance improvements, however small. So yeah, cool

What performance improvements, really ?

Are you talking about your comparative video ?

If there was a consistency to your results , then sure you may have a bee's dick of a point, but there wasn't, also, anything gauged on reading the ASIO meter I totally ignored, as it is IMO , useless.

You also need to step away from using the on-board Plugins and VI's, and broaden the testing to other DAW's. One last point, the DAWbench version you used with the on-board MBC hasn't been used in years, it was culled after 6.0 when they changed the code of the MBC that borked the operation ( unless all instances are in the new "Live Mode" which was added later )

Either way,

We are just going to go around in circles , again, knock yourself out with Win8 as you did with Vista.

I just find it hilarious that you are getting so agitated by it , in the end my principle goal is always in the best interest of my clients , I couldn't care less about M.S and co, and I'll call it as I see it, and what I see is Vista II.

Enjoy your Tiles.

We will find our own truth !

V.C

[johnny h]

without one clear positive to bring to the table over Win7 for DAW use, not one

(groan) just to drag it out for one more beating, here's what i like:
I prefer the look/feel of the desktop over Win7 - w7 feels old and draggy in comparison
I prefer the start screen to the start menu
I like the new task manager
I like the detail in copying files
I like the ribbon on open folders
I like the way new devices appear when attached
I like that my network printer just worked
I like the admin task menu
I like the potential of "touch"
I love how my desktop is separate from the busyness of the start menu - i no longer need shortcuts all over my desktop, i now have somewhere else to put those things - good management.
The Start screen is not as editable as i'd like it to be but i've already found an app for that

All these things feed into my ability to use the system as a DAW and creative tool and i'm certainly not turning my nose at the performance improvements, however small. So yeah, cool

Give it a good squeeze

[robinv]

Snore !

I am not going to bore you with my laundry list of likes and preference.

God man, i don't mean to bore you - i thought i was answering a question - geez

Is that seriously the best you can do ?

I think you're taking this all a bit too seriously

What performance improvements, really ?

Are you talking about your comparative video ?#

Duh, i'm such an idiot - there was me thinking i would raise the tiniest smile of approval using the DAWBench benchmarks but no, i'm still rubbish.

I just find it hilarious that you are getting so agitated by it , in the end my principle goal is always in the best interest of my clients , I couldn't care less about M.S and co, and I'll call it as I see it, and what I see is Vista II.

Who's agitated?

We will find our own truth !

V.C

Yes we do and i'm always happy to share mine

[robinv]

Give it a good squeeze

Oh i see - clutching at straws - hilarious
I think we should start a "don't you dare like Windows 8" facebook group together

[johnny h]

Give it a good squeeze

Oh i see - clutching at straws - hilarious
I think we should start a "don't you dare like Windows 8" facebook group together

Not as hilarious as your unwavering blind loyalty to Microsoft in the face of all evidence.

[TAFKAT]

God man, i don't mean to bore you - i thought i was answering a question - geez

Give it a rest, what question ?

You simply went off on a tangent without answering anything in regards to the point I made, which was showing one clear positive to using Windows 8 over Win 7 for DAW usage.

That laundry list of yours had nothing to do with what I was referring to, and you know it.

But don't let me stop you from piling on the inconsequential, keep chipping away there Mate, I'm sure there are some that are sympathetic to your Win8 stance.

I'll continue to deliver what I believe is the better option.

V.C

[robinv]

Not as hilarious as your unwavering blind loyalty to Microsoft in the face of all evidence.

God, really? Wow.