Windows 8 Drivers - caring manufacturer or wrongly focused?

[clube]

Many soundcards interfaces from major brands first launched over 5 years ago are still available for purchase. Indeed, any well designed, robust interface should be good to run over many years, except that we users can be unreasonably be held to ransom . The following story should have you checking out your manufacturer now.

In 2006 and 2007 Focusrite launched the first two products in their Saffire Pro range. I bought the second unit. Within a couple of years Focusrite effectively just repackaged the units as the Saffire Pro 40 which is still a current product. Imagine my shock when asking when we could expect Windows 8 drivers, Focusrite replied thus:

"Development support ended for the old Saffire range some time ago (two years after they were discontinued), so there will be no further updates for drivers and software."

Presumabaly they expect me to shell out £400 for the Saffire Pro 40 - no different in any significant sense to my Pro 10. It won't happen because I'll move brand and bye bye Focusrite for ever and a day.

Some of you may recall the huge and unpleasant campaign run by users of Digidesign Avid's Audiomedia III card about 15 years ago when they took the same attitude over updating drivers as Focusrite - it was XP drivers that were the issue then if I recall correctly. I for one have never bought another Digidesign product since and never will, and I won't be alone given the level of anger amongst other users then.

[johnny h]

RME are the best for drivers. Work with everything, super low latency.

[robinv]

I completely understand your pain.
I guess the question is whether it's reasonable to expect a manufacturer to support a product on all future operating systems. At the time of release i imagine they happily supported the operating systems available at the time. I've had a similar problem with my Powercore - now discontinued by TC Electronic so will probably never have Windows 8 drivers.

I think it's a computing conundrum - because computers change is there a duty of care from manufacturers to always ensure they are keeping up? Even with discontinued products?

That said i've not yet seen Windows 8 drivers for any audio interfaces and yet all the ones i've tried have worked happily on Windows 7 drivers - so i don't think there's too many issues there.

Just some thoughts anyway.

[Magic Matt]

As far as computers are concerned, Windows 8 is just Windows 7 with a Metro interface slapped on, so all the drivers for Windows 7 should work just as well under Windows 8.

You wont see Windows 8 drivers for other devices, like the ARM based tablets etc. as they just don't have the processing power.

[clube]

That's what I thought - so tested Windows 8 in a VM using the host soundcard but it didn't work. A little more investigation on manufacturer sites suggests that there are problems with a significant number of cards not working on Windows 8 although theoretically they probably should.
These issues crop up all the time in computing of course, but it's the attitude that their customers will happily shell out £400 - 500 for a new interface every few years and still have a smile on their faces that bothers me big time. A piece of gear that has "PRO" stamped on it should be current a lot longer than 6 years.
Just imagine for a moment that I gave in and bought a Saffire Pro 56 which they indicate they will develop drivers for - that's now a very old lady by Focusrite timescales and I would most likely find myself with a piece of unsupported "junk" within 12 months. The point is that these manufacturers need to give customers some commitment out of simple respect and decency if nothing else.

[OneWorld]

RME are the best for drivers. Work with everything, super low latency.

+1

[OneWorld]

Many soundcards interfaces from major brands first launched over 5 years ago are still available for purchase. Indeed, any well designed, robust interface should be good to run over many years, except that we users can be unreasonably be held to ransom . The following story should have you checking out your manufacturer now.

In 2006 and 2007 Focusrite launched the first two products in their Saffire Pro range. I bought the second unit. Within a couple of years Focusrite effectively just repackaged the units as the Saffire Pro 40 which is still a current product. Imagine my shock when asking when we could expect Windows 8 drivers, Focusrite replied thus:

"Development support ended for the old Saffire range some time ago (two years after they were discontinued), so there will be no further updates for drivers and software."

Presumabaly they expect me to shell out £400 for the Saffire Pro 40 - no different in any significant sense to my Pro 10. It won't happen because I'll move brand and bye bye Focusrite for ever and a day.

Some of you may recall the huge and unpleasant campaign run by users of Digidesign Avid's Audiomedia III card about 15 years ago when they took the same attitude over updating drivers as Focusrite - it was XP drivers that were the issue then if I recall correctly. I for one have never bought another Digidesign product since and never will, and I won't be alone given the level of anger amongst other users then.

This is one of the most galling aspects of doing music on computers, I now have a stack of what was very expensive hardware, and some software that as far as the manufacturer is concerned, the product has fallen off the radar. I was one of those dunderheads that bought into the 'futureproof' scam pulled off by Yamaha with their MLAN products...01x, i88x, just as good as scrap now. I really wanted to buy the Yamaha N12 mixer, and I was also in the market for a Motif, but aftetr my MLAN experiences, no way am I buying from Yamahaha

[Pete Kaine]

In 2006 and 2007 Focusrite launched the first two products in their Saffire Pro range. I bought the second unit. Within a couple of years Focusrite effectively just repackaged the units as the Saffire Pro 40 which is still a current product. Imagine my shock when asking when we could expect Windows 8 drivers, Focusrite replied thus:

"Development support ended for the old Saffire range some time ago (two years after they were discontinued), so there will be no further updates for drivers and software."

Presumabaly they expect me to shell out £400 for the Saffire Pro 40 - no different in any significant sense to my Pro 10.

As an educated guess(and from what I can work out via Google) I'd imagine the first 2 models were based around the DICE chipset whilst the newer units are based around the DICE II chipset. If that is the case then that is your problem.

Focusrite along with many other companies use off the shelf controller designs and base their units around them to the spec of their choice as after all, pretty much the controller does is talk to the PC anyway rather than do any of the signal important stuff like the dacs etc...

The DICE series is made by TC Konnekt and get's licensed out to other firms who are then at the mercy of the TCK development team for core updates. When they made the DICE chipset end of life in order to replace it with the newer (and vastly improved DICE II) chipset the firms who were licensing the tech were forced to follow suite and end support for the older controller.

So the current situation is that any of the half dozen firms using the DICE chipset in a device (not just Focusrite) are going to be out of luck when it comes to win8 if TCK doesn't choose to update. This isn't all that unusual at all in the computer world and from the OS point of view MS will also stop supporting an OS two years after the line is killed off, so in those regards TCK is just following a well known industry trend. That obviously isn't reassuring for an end user who see's what essentially is two interfaces that look the same but one has lost support and one hasn't but the is at least a reason behind it.

Just to flesh out Johnnys comment RME have always designed their controller solution and written drivers in house which is why support and the length of their life cycle is always so long term as they control it from start to finish. Sure they cost a premium amount but that cost is what permits them to keep supporting and developing their product lines long term. I'm sure the counter argument there may prove to be that a Pro 10 and Pro 40 bought over a 5 - 7 year period may even still work out cheaper than going RME or another premium brand once you take into account the cost of expansions but that's the hardware buying dilemma.

[johnny h]

In 2006 and 2007 Focusrite launched the first two products in their Saffire Pro range. I bought the second unit. Within a couple of years Focusrite effectively just repackaged the units as the Saffire Pro 40 which is still a current product. Imagine my shock when asking when we could expect Windows 8 drivers, Focusrite replied thus:

"Development support ended for the old Saffire range some time ago (two years after they were discontinued), so there will be no further updates for drivers and software."

Presumabaly they expect me to shell out £400 for the Saffire Pro 40 - no different in any significant sense to my Pro 10.

As an educated guess(and from what I can work out via Google) I'd imagine the first 2 models were based around the DICE chipset whilst the newer units are based around the DICE II chipset. If that is the case then that is your problem.

Focusrite along with many other companies use off the shelf controller designs and base their units around them to the spec of their choice as after all, pretty much the controller does is talk to the PC anyway rather than do any of the signal important stuff like the dacs etc...

The DICE series is made by TC Konnekt and get's licensed out to other firms who are then at the mercy of the TCK development team for core updates. When they made the DICE chipset end of life in order to replace it with the newer (and vastly improved DICE II) chipset the firms who were licensing the tech were forced to follow suite and end support for the older controller.

So the current situation is that any of the half dozen firms using the DICE chipset in a device (not just Focusrite) are going to be out of luck when it comes to win8 if TCK doesn't choose to update. This isn't all that unusual at all in the computer world and from the OS point of view MS will also stop supporting an OS two years after the line is killed off, so in those regards TCK is just following a well known industry trend. That obviously isn't reassuring for an end user who see's what essentially is two interfaces that look the same but one has lost support and one hasn't but the is at least a reason behind it.

Just to flesh out Johnnys comment RME have always designed their controller solution and written drivers in house which is why support and the length of their life cycle is always so long term as they control it from start to finish. Sure they cost a premium amount but that cost is what permits them to keep supporting and developing their product lines long term. I'm sure the counter argument there may prove to be that a Pro 10 and Pro 40 bought over a 5 - 7 year period may even still work out cheaper than going RME or another premium brand once you take into account the cost of expansions but that's the hardware buying dilemma.

From my experience with the Focusrite, they are buggy and prone to glitches and random bursts of noise. Plus they feel quite cheap. I personally know people who have abandoned them because they are too much of a headache to deal with.

I've had my RME Fireface since 2007 and have no plans to replace it for the foreseeable future. The thunderbolt>firewire cable means any laptop I buy in the future should be compatible and PCs should always be able to run firewire cards.

[OneWorld]

In 2006 and 2007 Focusrite launched the first two products in their Saffire Pro range. I bought the second unit. Within a couple of years Focusrite effectively just repackaged the units as the Saffire Pro 40 which is still a current product. Imagine my shock when asking when we could expect Windows 8 drivers, Focusrite replied thus:

"Development support ended for the old Saffire range some time ago (two years after they were discontinued), so there will be no further updates for drivers and software."

Presumabaly they expect me to shell out £400 for the Saffire Pro 40 - no different in any significant sense to my Pro 10.

As an educated guess(and from what I can work out via Google) I'd imagine the first 2 models were based around the DICE chipset whilst the newer units are based around the DICE II chipset. If that is the case then that is your problem.

Focusrite along with many other companies use off the shelf controller designs and base their units around them to the spec of their choice as after all, pretty much the controller does is talk to the PC anyway rather than do any of the signal important stuff like the dacs etc...

The DICE series is made by TC Konnekt and get's licensed out to other firms who are then at the mercy of the TCK development team for core updates. When they made the DICE chipset end of life in order to replace it with the newer (and vastly improved DICE II) chipset the firms who were licensing the tech were forced to follow suite and end support for the older controller.

So the current situation is that any of the half dozen firms using the DICE chipset in a device (not just Focusrite) are going to be out of luck when it comes to win8 if TCK doesn't choose to update. This isn't all that unusual at all in the computer world and from the OS point of view MS will also stop supporting an OS two years after the line is killed off, so in those regards TCK is just following a well known industry trend. That obviously isn't reassuring for an end user who see's what essentially is two interfaces that look the same but one has lost support and one hasn't but the is at least a reason behind it.

Just to flesh out Johnnys comment RME have always designed their controller solution and written drivers in house which is why support and the length of their life cycle is always so long term as they control it from start to finish. Sure they cost a premium amount but that cost is what permits them to keep supporting and developing their product lines long term. I'm sure the counter argument there may prove to be that a Pro 10 and Pro 40 bought over a 5 - 7 year period may even still work out cheaper than going RME or another premium brand once you take into account the cost of expansions but that's the hardware buying dilemma.

That's a good bit of info regarding the RME set up, that does indeed explai why some manufacturers can seem to continue to support customers and others just seem to say "Well, we've had your money, oh dear what a shame never mind!"

[James Perrett]

As an educated guess(and from what I can work out via Google) I'd imagine the first 2 models were based around the DICE chipset whilst the newer units are based around the DICE II chipset. If that is the case then that is your problem.

Nearly right Pete - the first two models are based around the Bridgeco chipset rather than the original DICE chipset. It will be interesting to see if other manufacturers who used the same chipset follow Focusrite's lead.

RME have done something similar with their older cards and Win7 64 bit but the timescale was something like 6 years between discontinuing the cards and the introduction of the new OS. However, I understand that the RME cards should still work in Win8 32 bit.

James.

[Pete Kaine]

As I've never had the pro 10 in bits I stand corrected then.

[Magic Matt]

That's what I thought - so tested Windows 8 in a VM using the host soundcard but it didn't work. A little more investigation on manufacturer sites suggests that there are problems with a significant number of cards not working on Windows 8 although theoretically they probably should.

A lot of Win7 hardware doesn't work properly in a VM either, so not really a very reliable test, but I see your point.

If you can't get something to work on Win8 though, it's also worth checking you're installing the right drivers (64bit or 32bit), and you may have luck with Vista drivers also.

However I'd also suggest that the cost of buying Windows 7 (especially OEM) will be far less than the cost of replacing incompatible hardware add-ons when you get a new machine. I'm about to create a dual-boot partition on a machine to run XP for precisely that reason - no Win7 driver support, but XP will run fine on the machine, and there's nothing in Win7 that I'll actually need.

[Magic Matt]

The cost of RME gear seems to be more than double that of MOTU ... is the support life expectancy more than doubled?

It seems more sensible to me to have a unit that may last half the time, and know you'll be replacing it with a new one. If the cost difference were not so much then maybe the argument for the RME unit would be better...?

[Shambolic Charm]

Some drivers just need the inf tweaking to include win8 and on initial install you have to bypass driver signing. Very lazy if these companies can't be bothered to do the necessary tweaks, shows how much they think of their customers.

[johnny h]

The cost of RME gear seems to be more than double that of MOTU ... is the support life expectancy more than doubled?

It seems more sensible to me to have a unit that may last half the time, and know you'll be replacing it with a new one. If the cost difference were not so much then maybe the argument for the RME unit would be better...?

It probably is double yes, and in the meantime you would also have better converters, better construction, more reliable drivers and lower latency. Plus better resale value - I can get about 80% of the price I paid for mine right now on ebay ... not too bad for 5 years of use. I wouldn't swap my 5 year old RME for a brand new MOTU that's for sure.

[Exalted Wombat]

A piece of gear that has "PRO" stamped on it should be current a lot longer than 6 years.

Great Truths of Mankind #467:

Anything labelled "Pro", isn't.

[OneWorld]

The cost of RME gear seems to be more than double that of MOTU ... is the support life expectancy more than doubled?

It seems more sensible to me to have a unit that may last half the time, and know you'll be replacing it with a new one. If the cost difference were not so much then maybe the argument for the RME unit would be better...?

It probably is double yes, and in the meantime you would also have better converters, better construction, more reliable drivers and lower latency. Plus better resale value - I can get about 80% of the price I paid for mine right now on ebay ... not too bad for 5 years of use. I wouldn't swap my 5 year old RME for a brand new MOTU that's for sure.

And there was that MOTU PCI324/PCI424 issue, so a lot of us got lumbered with PCI324 cards that were useless once we got more modern computers. That put me off MOTU for good, managed to sell the 2408MKII + Card, for buttons!

[Magic Matt]

A piece of gear that has "PRO" stamped on it should be current a lot longer than 6 years.

Great Truths of Mankind #467:

Anything labelled "Pro", isn't.

...like Pro Tools.

[clube]

A piece of gear that has "PRO" stamped on it should be current a lot longer than 6 years.

Great Truths of Mankind #467:

Anything labelled "Pro", isn't.

A good rule of thumb - must remember that one

[clube]

Focusrite said they have passed my comments on to their R&D and Sales directors so let's see what happens.

The irony of all this is that I originally purchased a Presonus, but at that time it would not work with Sonar. I believe that particular problem is now sorted out, but to add to the irony I now do most of my recording in Studio One!

I hear what you guys say about RME but these more expensive units worry me. I used Aardvark for many years which was also a premium product - their products sounded tons better than Focusrite - but they got priced out of business by the cheaper interfaces from M-Audio, Focusrite, Presonus, Roland etc. That's always worried me too much to move to another premium product range.

Looks like I'll be staying with Windows 7 for now.

[Pete Kaine]

The irony of all this is that I originally purchased a Presonus, but at that time it would not work with Sonar.

Presonous also buy in their controller so the situation (depending upon the interface in question) may still be open to the same issues.

[johnny h]

Focusrite said they have passed my comments on to their R&D and Sales directors so let's see what happens.

The irony of all this is that I originally purchased a Presonus, but at that time it would not work with Sonar. I believe that particular problem is now sorted out, but to add to the irony I now do most of my recording in Studio One!

I hear what you guys say about RME but these more expensive units worry me. I used Aardvark for many years which was also a premium product - their products sounded tons better than Focusrite - but they got priced out of business by the cheaper interfaces from M-Audio, Focusrite, Presonus, Roland etc. That's always worried me too much to move to another premium product range.

Looks like I'll be staying with Windows 7 for now.

RME worries you but Focusrite doesn't? I don't think RME are going out of business anytime soon, they aren't exactly boutique. Having a soundcard with rock solid drivers, good sound and build quality and the ultra low latency doesn't worry me one bit!

[Robin Lemaire]

Just my 2 pence worth -

I had an RME Digi 96/8 pad pci card for years which was excellent, I only changed it last year because the driver support was archived.

It wouldn't play with the later versions of QuickTime or iTunes, so video work with sonar was horrible, and I find iTunes useful for quickly referencing other tracks.

I replaced it with a focusrite saffire pro, which doesn't sound quite as good (in fairness there is very little in it), but everything else about it has been flawless.

[ramthelinefeed]

RME are the best for drivers. Work with everything, super low latency.

Actually the firewire driver for the RME UCX I bought this summer was total crap!
Constant blue screens on Windows 7, and when I tried to get help on their forums, just got this asinine "pah! it's all Windows fault, nothing we can do, mein herr!" bollocks.

Luckily it also connects via USB2, and the USB drivers are rock solid.