Audio card or interface with s/pdif

[Gazzamundo]

Hi, my current set-up is a mid-range preamp - the Audient Mico - and a lowish range audio interface - the Alesis io26 Firewire. I was thinking about upgrading my signal path by replacing the Alesis, so I just need a good quality audio card or stand-alone interface that has an s/pdif input to take the signal from the Mico preamp.

Any suggestions?

Thanks
Gary

[ef37a]

Hi, my current set-up is a mid-range preamp - the Audient Mico - and a lowish range audio interface - the Alesis io26 Firewire. I was thinking about upgrading my signal path by replacing the Alesis, so I just need a good quality audio card or stand-alone interface that has an s/pdif input to take the signal from the Mico preamp.

Any suggestions?

Thanks
Gary

Native Instruments Komplete Audio 6. My work here is done.

Dave.

[Gazzamundo]

Ooh! That looks nice!

[James Perrett]

Any reason why you can't just use the spdif input on the Alesis?

I'd stick with the Alesis, ignore the analogue I/O and just use the digital I/O. If you need more inputs add an Audient ASP008 if you can afford it, or a Behringer ADA8000 if money is tight.

James.

[Gazzamundo]

Hi James, I AM using the s/pdif on the Alesis at the moment, I guess I'm just not sure what happens when the digital output from the Audient goes through the Alesis. Is there any processing happening at this stage within the Alesis, or is the output from the Audient simply passed along into my DAW?

[il Padrino]

I purchased the Mico for the same reason, and alongside it I went for the Roland Octacapture.

However, you've not mentioned your budget?

[ef37a]

Any reason why you can't just use the spdif input on the Alesis?

I'd stick with the Alesis, ignore the analogue I/O and just use the digital I/O. If you need more inputs add an Audient ASP008 if you can afford it, or a Behringer ADA8000 if money is tight.

James.

Hi James. I had assume Gaz wanted to be shot of the Alesis because,
A) He wanted better and
B) he wanted rid of Firewire? I have read a little bit about driver issues with Alesis interfaces.
Gaz: I too have always understood that S/PDIF is S/PDIF no matter whether it is bolted onto an RME or a bog s Creative SB? Very low latency solution, M-A 2496. 60quid. But the Ka6 has about a 5dB better noise floor. Academic tho' I know!

Dave.

[Gazzamundo]

My budget? Well, no more than a few hundred quid. I've considered desktop boxes like the TC Electronic Impact Twin, M-Audio Profire 610, always fancied the look of the MOTU Ultralite, though I guess if I'm using the Mico as a front end, all I need is a means of getting the s/pdif signal into my PC.

By the way, the Alesis works fine, I think it's only coz it didn't cost that much per channel that I'm thinking of upgrading. Also, a smaller box would free up some space on my desktop.

Thanks for all the responses so far, by the way.

[ef37a]

" Also, a smaller box would free up some space on my desktop."

Well, a 2496 would appear to clear up ALL the space on your desk! "Appear" is the operative word since you would still need some form of monitor control.... Like the knob atop the Ka6!

But as James says, if you are otherwise happy with the Alesis why change? You could put the dosh toward a better mic? Even a bit more room treatment (yeah, I know. B.O.R.I.N.G.)

Dave.

[James Perrett]

Keep the Alesis if it is working because it gives you plenty of expansion potential and should'nt degrade the sound on the digital inputs.

[Gazzamundo]

Do you know, with these type of audio interfaces, if the data from the s/pdif input is just passed on to the DAW without any processing/computation/number crunching?

[James Perrett]

There are certain multimedia and built-in interfaces where the audio goes through some 'sound enhancement' but anything for the home/pro recording market should be accurate bit for bit. I believe that the Alesis is based on the Wavefront DICE or DICE II chipset which is found in a variety of professional interfaces and has never been reported to have problems in this respect. It should be fine to partner it with the highest quality convertors.

James.

[Skerrick]

FOCUSRITE 2i4! nuff said.

[Goddard]

Perhaps a better way to "upgrade" the signal chain would be to shorten it, by going with a motherboard with onboard S/PDIF input and output. Not many motherboards available with S/PDIF input (in addition to the more common S/PDIF output), but they are out there if you look (look at provided onboard "header" connections, not just back panel jacks). Should be able to get quite low latency and cpu loading using WaveRT drivers, and should not need to go through the onboard audio mixer. Current onboard audio chips and drivers can typically handle S/PDIF I/O at 24-bit/192kHz, with a direct dedicated connection to the system chipset.

Next best might be a PCIe/PCI interface card with S/PDIF I/O (PCI card only if motherboard has "native" PCI support).

Either of these would bypass/eliminate the Firewire/USB legs (and buffers and protocol conversions, etc.) in the signal chain, giving a shorter and more direct signal path.

[Skerrick]

as far as i know youre better off with an outboard soundcard.. i had an onboard one and ended up selling it, you get sound coming off the cpu communication coming through in the mix. like a crackling sound.. i had the 512mb creative soundblaster recon... but i dont know if there are decent onboard cards or not tbh.. i use the focusrite 2i4 and its pretty incredible. but im no authority on the matter by any means...

[ef37a]

as far as i know youre better off with an outboard soundcard.. i had an onboard one and ended up selling it, you get sound coming off the cpu communication coming through in the mix. like a crackling sound.. i had the 512mb creative soundblaster recon... but i dont know if there are decent onboard cards or not tbh.. i use the focusrite 2i4 and its pretty incredible. but im no authority on the matter by any means...

Bit of a myth this IMHO. The oft repeated tale that the inside of a PC is a coruscating inferno of RF and so any audio board in there MUST be noisier than an outboard one. My 2496's both return a noise floor of around -97dBFS in two very different MOBOs. I do not think results from a Creative S(of a) B can be regarded as typical? But even if the idea of mixing digital and audio in close proximity was a bad one there are many compact and bijoux AIs to prove it CAN be done AND incorporate quite high gain mic amps to boot!

Never tried the Focusrite but I am happy with my Ka6 and I got two extra ins and outs for me money!
Dave.

[Pete Kaine]

Is this just for playback to a HiFi or does it need ASIO drivers as well?

Regarding onboard... proper onboard (i.e. the chip is wielded to the motherboard) can be crummy. I used to have a well respected fairly highend board in my gaming rig that was so murky it was annoying. S/PDIF from an onboard should come off better as it's being relayed bit for bit but I've never had the urge to try it in a proper listening enviroment. So that said if you can attempt what Goddard suggests, give it a go before spending out any large chunks of money.

On board cards are fine (i.e. ones that get put into a slot) without the noise issues of the onboard which for me rules out RF (as Dave says) and puts the internal noise more down to the signal flow and design of the motherboard in regards to where noise comes into the path.

If this is just for playback and you don't need decent ASIO then take a look at the ASUS Xonar range. The flagship STX (around the same cost as the KA6) lives in my gaming box now and sounds amazing (possibly even better than the RME in the recording box next to it) and from what I remember the are cheaper editions with the digital support you need.

[James Perrett]

The flagship STX (around the same cost as the KA6) lives in my gaming box now and sounds amazing (possibly even better than the RME in the recording box next to it) and from what I remember the are cheaper editions with the digital support you need.

If it sounds better through SPDIF than the RME then you've got a problem somewhere Pete. I'm not sure that I would trust the SPDIF output on a gaming card to be bit accurate as that's the sort of market that is looking for 'enhancements' in the audio.

James.

[Pete Kaine]

If it sounds better through SPDIF than the RME then you've got a problem somewhere Pete. I'm not sure that I would trust the SPDIF output on a gaming card to be bit accurate as that's the sort of market that is looking for 'enhancements' in the audio.

No, sorry, I should have been clearer, I was talking about the analogue path as I'm not using SPDIF and the STX isn't exactly a gaming card!

The Xonar range are designed more for media playback funtionality over everything else. If the OP just wants playback without the grubbins via SPDIF then that would be where I would look for that purpose... As soon as someone mentions ASIO I'll retract my statement

In fact just found this interesting thread discussing the STX and the joys of switchable opamps and comparing it to few others units.

[James Perrett]

The OP was wanting to preserve the signal quality from an Audient Mico preamp so ASIO is probably involved somewhere.

The article discussing the changeable opamps is also totally missing the point - if the output circuit is properly designed, a competent opamp will have little bearing on the sound as it goes nowhere near the output. It is the output circuit that has the difficult job to do. If changing the opamp is changing the sound then those cards are poorly designed.

I'll bet most of the difference is a placebo effect though...

James.

[Magic Matt]

Gaz: I too have always understood that S/PDIF is S/PDIF no matter whether it is bolted onto an RME or a bog s Creative SB? Very low latency solution, M-A 2496. 60quid. But the Ka6 has about a 5dB better noise floor. Academic tho' I know!

Just to address this point directly - no, sadly that is not the case.

If you have an interface that can lock onto an external clock, then it's going to be a perfectly acceptable duplicate. Similarly, if your device can output a clock for the other device to use as a clock input, you can achieve the same.

Sound Blaster cards always used to be locked at 48kHz, and could not sync to an external clock - in fact, even standard CD playback was resampled to 48kHz, which is why CD playback through Sound Blaster if you were using the digital playback often sounded worse than the analogue out from the CD player.

Similarly, if your device is not able to use an external clock input, you'll get jitter etc. which can affect the sound. If you're going to use the S/PDIF inputs, always make sure you are also able to sync the clocks.

[Pete Kaine]

The OP was wanting to preserve the signal quality from an Audient Mico preamp so ASIO is probably involved somewhere.

Ahh right, I read pre-amp and assumed for some reason the signal was leaving the box not entering... should have had a look at the product. I shouldn't let myself on here on Monday mornings sans coffee, yeah, overall point taken!

The article discussing the changeable opamps is also totally missing the point - if the output circuit is properly designed, a competent opamp will have little bearing on the sound as it goes nowhere near the output. It is the output circuit that has the difficult job to do. If changing the opamp is changing the sound then those cards are poorly designed.

I'll bet most of the difference is a placebo effect though...

I don't disagree with that at all. Sounds awesome out of the box through in A/B testing was the original point before all of that. Anyhow I misread the original post, looks like I've gone off tangent altogether, sorry OP!

[Gazzamundo]

Thanks for all the responses so far - and it's nice to find a really active recording forum full of people willing and able to contribute.

Further info on my recording set up. I've a quad core PC and run Sonar X1 (using ASIO). I originally bought the Alesis io26 for the wealth of inputs it had. The Audient Mico was purchased later, searching for that elusive acoustic guitar sound (let's not mention room treatment - I'm aware of all that - or mic placement). And as an excuse to squander some of my redundancy cheque! My monitors are Focal CMS40s (pretty decent, I hope you recognise), my main mic is an SE Z5600A (ditto).

I'm in the midst of selling off a load of studio gear on eBay and like to recycle some of the cash in an upgrade (rather than blowing it all on beer). The io26 performs fine, but I'm aware that it's kinda low end, component-wise and kudos-wise. I've only ever used all 8 analog inputs once, and the way my music "career" has gone, I'm unlikely to be recording a full band any time soon.

So I guess I'm looking to scale up quality-wise and scale down desk space and connectivity-wise.

As for clocking, the Audient has wordclock (not that I fully understand the concept), the Alesis doesn't, and most of the gear I've been looking at doesn't either. They seem to work fine together, though I wouldn't say I've noticed any increase in quality since I introduced the Audient.

Hope I've made my situation clearer!

[ef37a]

Gaz: I too have always understood that S/PDIF is S/PDIF no matter whether it is bolted onto an RME or a bog s Creative SB? Very low latency solution, M-A 2496. 60quid. But the Ka6 has about a 5dB better noise floor. Academic tho' I know!

Just to address this point directly - no, sadly that is not the case.

If you have an interface that can lock onto an external clock, then it's going to be a perfectly acceptable duplicate. Similarly, if your device can output a clock for the other device to use as a clock input, you can achieve the same.

Sound Blaster cards always used to be locked at 48kHz, and could not sync to an external clock - in fact, even standard CD playback was resampled to 48kHz, which is why CD playback through Sound Blaster if you were using the digital playback often sounded worse than the analogue out from the CD player.

Similarly, if your device is not able to use an external clock input, you'll get jitter etc. which can affect the sound. If you're going to use the S/PDIF inputs, always make sure you are also able to sync the clocks.

Err? Every S/PDIF device I have ever used IS the clock? If I feed my 2496 from the digital out of my Ka6 or Fast track pro,(or MDisc) one of those MUST be the master. No sync'ing to worry about. Don't work otherwise.

Dave.

[Goddard]

The OP was wanting to preserve the signal quality from an Audient Mico preamp so ASIO is probably involved somewhere.

The onboard (built on-motherboard) HDA (High Definition Audio) audio chips on recent motherboards (since Vista) can use supplied Windows "WaveRT" low latency/load drivers. No ASIO drivers are available for onboard audio afaik, although the ASIO4ALL wrapper should work with the WaveRT drivers to provide ASIO compatibility if desired.

On-motherboard S/PDIF has been around for years, and many motherboards feature coax and/or optical S/PDIF on the back panel, which can be used for home entertainment and gaming surround sound (in surround sound "passthrough" mode) as well as for pro audio output. As well, more recently the on-motherboard S/PDIF is often made available via a header located on the motherboard, for enabling connection to an HDMI-capable graphic card for routing digital audio output via HDMI.

S/PDIF input headers were at one time commonly found on motherboards, for connecting the digital output of a CD-ROM or DVD-ROM drive, but are less commonly offered on motherboards these days although many on-motherboard audio chips do still include support for S/PDIF input.

The E-MU 1010 add-in PCIe card interface is as good as RME for ADAT and S/PDIF (and AES) I/O, at a fraction of the cost:

http://us.store.creative.com/EMU-1010-PCIe-Audio-Interface/M...

And the 1212M version with analog I/O daughterboard isn't too shabby either:

http://www.creative.com/emu/products/pr ... &pid=19169