Hi all,
Go easy on me here please as this is a sensitive and very longstanding subject for me but i feel i should ask the good folk around here for their opinions.
I have written many albums of songs (11 that i actually managed to commit to tape/sound files). I love the idea of writing songs, but have a bit of a rough history with it.
The only times ( twice ) i ever wrote albums i actually liked, i did not record them and forgot them. That was a big blow for me. I remember feeling happier than usual and relaxed both times and that it translated into the music. I think it was a case of self sabotage ( not recording them ).
I don't like the songs i write. They often seem to bring up feelings of discontent in me so i don't enjoy writing them and don't like to listen to them as it puts me back into that frame of mind.
I would stop writing music but i am unable to do so as i feel compulsed to do it and to express myself.
Some people seem to like my music. I had a major label interested in me in the past and have had a promotion company who wanted to work with me but i never got back to them. I just thought it seemed ridiculous they would be interested in that music when i felt i could do a lot better ( felt like i was a fake ). Other people contacted them about me. I played in a band for many years and crowds often seemed to be positive about my songs.
The problem is that i don't like them. It just seems pointless to even record them properly and play them live for people if i don't like them in the first place.
To this point i have just kept on writing songs in the hope that i will write something i actually like, but that is not working.
I think i just need to accept that writing songs is what i do and get on with recording them. It is the thinking about writing them along with the overly critical feelings i have about them and comparing them to great artists songs that causes most of my worry about it. I think it is just not helpful and due to poor self esteem ( been down that route and have had some help with it ).
I know a lot of people are their own worst critics but it is to a ridiculous level that i do it.
I know everyone is different but has anyone else had similar experiences or feeling this way ?. It would help me to know i'm not the only one who feels this way. I have a novel writer friend who said she feels this way about initial drafts but music is often more immediate than a story unfolding ( not that i know anything about writing ).
Many thanks
I don't like the songs i write
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Arrangement, instrumentation, lyric writing, music theory, inspiration… it’s all here.
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I don't like the songs i write
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- Helmutcrab
Frequent Poster - Posts: 521 Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:00 am Location: County Durham, UK
Re: I don't like the songs i write
Hi there,
You are not alone in this! I don't like about 90% of what I write and never listen to it once I've done it. I don't think you have to like what you write do you? Most composers I know are hypercritical of what they've composed and generally can't bear to listen to it once they've done it. And if you do it for a living there's even less chance of liking it. You don't have to like crusty baps if you work at Greggs do you?
But the process itself can be very enjoyable - that's what I like. The composing process.
Also, you may find in time that you get to have a more positive view of older material.
I think you are being a tad hard on yerself mate.
You are not alone in this! I don't like about 90% of what I write and never listen to it once I've done it. I don't think you have to like what you write do you? Most composers I know are hypercritical of what they've composed and generally can't bear to listen to it once they've done it. And if you do it for a living there's even less chance of liking it. You don't have to like crusty baps if you work at Greggs do you?
But the process itself can be very enjoyable - that's what I like. The composing process.
Also, you may find in time that you get to have a more positive view of older material.
I think you are being a tad hard on yerself mate.
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- Guest
Re: I don't like the songs i write
I think most creative people have, or at least have had, a complicated relationship with the works they create.
It's too easy to ignore the good things about it, and focus on the flaws. It's also easy to assume everyone elses work is better (when many of those things you're comparing too have creators that may well feel the same way about their stuff as you do about yours - only it's only them that know it.
Maybe it would be useful to try to understand what it is you don't like about your stuff. Is it that you are bored with doing the same old style? Maybe you are not communicating what it is you want to say? Maybe you don't have anything to say? Are the lyrics or the melodies not working? Maybe you are not working hard enough to find a good idea or inception in the first place that the rest of the song hangs of of solidly? Maybe it's not the material at all, but just your relationship to it, causing you to not be able to objectively assess what it is you are doing?
If you can identify key things, then that at least gives you some ideas of what to focus on to try to improve. There is always the dawning dread that you just might not be very good at it, but even people who aren't that great can come up with valid creations. Also, perhaps you are tired and lacking in inspiration, and so treat writing as a chore you get no enjoyment from and that it's pointless to put the effort in if the end result is going to be poor and unsatisfactory in the first place? In that case, maybe it's time to give it a break, and come back when you are rejuvenated and inspired to write..?
It's too easy to ignore the good things about it, and focus on the flaws. It's also easy to assume everyone elses work is better (when many of those things you're comparing too have creators that may well feel the same way about their stuff as you do about yours - only it's only them that know it.
Maybe it would be useful to try to understand what it is you don't like about your stuff. Is it that you are bored with doing the same old style? Maybe you are not communicating what it is you want to say? Maybe you don't have anything to say? Are the lyrics or the melodies not working? Maybe you are not working hard enough to find a good idea or inception in the first place that the rest of the song hangs of of solidly? Maybe it's not the material at all, but just your relationship to it, causing you to not be able to objectively assess what it is you are doing?
If you can identify key things, then that at least gives you some ideas of what to focus on to try to improve. There is always the dawning dread that you just might not be very good at it, but even people who aren't that great can come up with valid creations. Also, perhaps you are tired and lacking in inspiration, and so treat writing as a chore you get no enjoyment from and that it's pointless to put the effort in if the end result is going to be poor and unsatisfactory in the first place? In that case, maybe it's time to give it a break, and come back when you are rejuvenated and inspired to write..?
..............................mu:zines | music magazine archive | difficultAudio | Legacy Logic Project Conversion
Re: I don't like the songs i write
If I understand correctly — I may be making huge and unwarranted assumptions here — you seem to have an ability to communicate with your songwriting in a way that resonates with people, but you find that the subject matter you're communicating about is intensely painful to work through. That's not uncommon: painful emotions are powerful and will often come to the fore when you're trying to express yourself in any artistic endeavour. But if it's that painful that persistently, it sounds like your lasting strength of feeling about these issues is stifling your ability to create. All of which made me wondered whether you had you considered seeking some form of counselling... as an alternative way of working through such issues and moving you on to a place where you can write about things and get some sense of closure, without this ongoing sense of pain? Perhaps you're worried that by addressing these issues you'll have nothing to write about?
In a more immediate and practical sense, if you're worried that you lose all the good ideas and fail to develop them, you need a mechanism for managing your ideas. You'll have many more ideas than you're capable of bringing to fruition, but that doesn't stop you recording every idea as a rough demo (even just a hummed melody) and cataloguing things as ideas to be explored and plundered at a later date, when you're ready to develop things more fully.
In a more immediate and practical sense, if you're worried that you lose all the good ideas and fail to develop them, you need a mechanism for managing your ideas. You'll have many more ideas than you're capable of bringing to fruition, but that doesn't stop you recording every idea as a rough demo (even just a hummed melody) and cataloguing things as ideas to be explored and plundered at a later date, when you're ready to develop things more fully.
Re: I don't like the songs i write
First the easy bits: I think every songwriter relates to the "fake" feeling. I feel that often we mix "real" with "recognized" or "professional". But they aren't the same. A work of art is real when you write it. When you're able to go from scratch to a finished product - like you have done - you are a songwriter. Maybe not full time, maybe not professional (in the sense that you make a living of it), but a songwriter nevertheless. If you'd never finished a song, you wouldn't be. Then comes recognition. Or it doesn't. But your work is still there. On tape (or hard disk).
For the recording - don't make a big deal of recording with perfect quality. You want to capture the idea. I found my salvation in my mobile phone: I always have it with me, and it has a built in recorder and I don't have to prepare *anything*. Just press record and sing away. It may get funny at times but it helps keeping many more of your ideas.
The third bit is the hardest - you're not liking the results and the forces that motivates you to write. You aren't the only one. Others wrote good comments, which I share. I can add a couple things, based on my experience.
The first is to try and write about everything
: sad things, good things, exciting, boring, hopeful, desperate etc. This results in songs with very different shades.
The second is to focus on the *technical* way of doing so. Minor keys are often sad, but there's a whole different quality in a Dm than an Am. Major keys are fluid - you can use 'em anywhere but may need seasoning. Certain interval progressions are exciting, others are safe and comfortable. The same progression in different keys or with different chord voicings may sound different. I dislike 7ths - I often find them pedestrian and literally irritating. I'll almost always have a sus4 chord *somewhere* because I like them so much. Which "great" songs do you like? Why do you like them? How are they technically built? There's a specific passage in an old Queen song that gives me the chills every single time. I love it. The trick is that it goes from somewhere major to somewhere minor for just that phrase, where the somewhere minor is harmonically related (no idea how, I ain't big on theory - I just can play the thing and hear the intervals).
I recall an interview with a young Sting (a "real" songrwriter, I guess) talking about Police songs and how surprised he was on how he thought he'd copied stuff from here and there and nobody was noticing.. and we're talking of Police's "great" songs - the ones which still sound every bit as good and exciting 30 years after, to people who weren't even born back then.
Same goes with rhythm: certain rhythms are inebriating, others depressive, others boring. Put up a drum machine and pick up something random. Seek stuff you normally avoid: I often write with a guitar - and I try to put fingers where I cannot do (well) just to hear how it sounds. Mostly it's crap, but every now and then you find something you lile. It gets you out of your box. There are 12 notes in the scale, but oh so much can be done with them. And music theory technicalities become exciting only when you use them as a way to find ideas you didn't know you had.
For the recording - don't make a big deal of recording with perfect quality. You want to capture the idea. I found my salvation in my mobile phone: I always have it with me, and it has a built in recorder and I don't have to prepare *anything*. Just press record and sing away. It may get funny at times but it helps keeping many more of your ideas.
The third bit is the hardest - you're not liking the results and the forces that motivates you to write. You aren't the only one. Others wrote good comments, which I share. I can add a couple things, based on my experience.
The first is to try and write about everything
: sad things, good things, exciting, boring, hopeful, desperate etc. This results in songs with very different shades. The second is to focus on the *technical* way of doing so. Minor keys are often sad, but there's a whole different quality in a Dm than an Am. Major keys are fluid - you can use 'em anywhere but may need seasoning. Certain interval progressions are exciting, others are safe and comfortable. The same progression in different keys or with different chord voicings may sound different. I dislike 7ths - I often find them pedestrian and literally irritating. I'll almost always have a sus4 chord *somewhere* because I like them so much. Which "great" songs do you like? Why do you like them? How are they technically built? There's a specific passage in an old Queen song that gives me the chills every single time. I love it. The trick is that it goes from somewhere major to somewhere minor for just that phrase, where the somewhere minor is harmonically related (no idea how, I ain't big on theory - I just can play the thing and hear the intervals).
I recall an interview with a young Sting (a "real" songrwriter, I guess) talking about Police songs and how surprised he was on how he thought he'd copied stuff from here and there and nobody was noticing.. and we're talking of Police's "great" songs - the ones which still sound every bit as good and exciting 30 years after, to people who weren't even born back then.
Same goes with rhythm: certain rhythms are inebriating, others depressive, others boring. Put up a drum machine and pick up something random. Seek stuff you normally avoid: I often write with a guitar - and I try to put fingers where I cannot do (well) just to hear how it sounds. Mostly it's crap, but every now and then you find something you lile. It gets you out of your box. There are 12 notes in the scale, but oh so much can be done with them. And music theory technicalities become exciting only when you use them as a way to find ideas you didn't know you had.
Silver Spoon - Check out our latest video and the FB page
Re: I don't like the songs i write
I think this is a feeling we can all relate to.
I don't write 'songs' as such .... I don't even 'write' as such .... just put together these 'soundscape' things as audio demos for my stuff. They are often put together quite quickly and I finish thinking "That'll do" and up it goes onto my site...
Next thing I know, people contact me to say how much they enjoyed it, could they get a copy, some even offering to pay for it. And I'm thinking "Ermmmm.... why? I mean, it's ok but ...." ...but there ya go ... no accounting for taste!
I think many of us can have feelings of a lack of confidence at our oeuvre and I think it can be rather endearing ... certainly nicer than "Listen to this, dude - it's f'k'n fantastic" when, in fact, it's a crock of steaming turd!
More embarrassing (for me, at least) is listening to older stuff and cringing ... "What the hell was I thinking?" ... but I am sure we've all done that too!
I think you just have to do what you like doing and so what? It's not like you're writing for clients and need to pander to their (often daft) requirements.
And, as mentioned above, experiment ... do stuff you might not normal do (come on - hands up everyone who just head for the same old chords, key signatures and rhythms!! )
Also, collaboration might be a good idea ... someone else might be able inject something into your ventures. One of the problems (and something that differentiates modern music production and music making of yore) is that one person does all the 'writing', arranging, playing, recording, production and engineering - that can be very insular and it's a lot of caps to wear. Not that I making any comparisons but it's an easy analogy to make - Lennon and McCartney wrote some timeless songs but individually, each one wrote some real shite!
Just my thoughts FWIW.
I don't write 'songs' as such .... I don't even 'write' as such .... just put together these 'soundscape' things as audio demos for my stuff. They are often put together quite quickly and I finish thinking "That'll do" and up it goes onto my site...
Next thing I know, people contact me to say how much they enjoyed it, could they get a copy, some even offering to pay for it. And I'm thinking "Ermmmm.... why? I mean, it's ok but ...." ...but there ya go ... no accounting for taste!
I think many of us can have feelings of a lack of confidence at our oeuvre and I think it can be rather endearing ... certainly nicer than "Listen to this, dude - it's f'k'n fantastic" when, in fact, it's a crock of steaming turd!
More embarrassing (for me, at least) is listening to older stuff and cringing ... "What the hell was I thinking?" ... but I am sure we've all done that too!
I think you just have to do what you like doing and so what? It's not like you're writing for clients and need to pander to their (often daft) requirements.
And, as mentioned above, experiment ... do stuff you might not normal do (come on - hands up everyone who just head for the same old chords, key signatures and rhythms!!
)Also, collaboration might be a good idea ... someone else might be able inject something into your ventures. One of the problems (and something that differentiates modern music production and music making of yore) is that one person does all the 'writing', arranging, playing, recording, production and engineering - that can be very insular and it's a lot of caps to wear. Not that I making any comparisons but it's an easy analogy to make - Lennon and McCartney wrote some timeless songs but individually, each one wrote some real shite!
Just my thoughts FWIW.
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- hollowsun
Frequent Poster -
Posts: 2036 Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:00 am
Location: Cowbridge, South Wales
Contact:
Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog
Re: I don't like the songs i write
Thanks so much for everyones contributions, i really appreciate them all. They all make good sense.
'' Not that I making any comparisons but it's an easy analogy to make - Lennon and McCartney wrote some timeless songs but individually, each one wrote some real shite! ''
Thats class that. I had a good chuckle at that. From timeless to shite. Its so easy to do - well the shite part anyway !. hehe
Novel writer friend = novelist. You can tell i didn't listen much at school.
Cheers everyone
'' Not that I making any comparisons but it's an easy analogy to make - Lennon and McCartney wrote some timeless songs but individually, each one wrote some real shite! ''
Thats class that. I had a good chuckle at that. From timeless to shite. Its so easy to do - well the shite part anyway !. hehe
Novel writer friend = novelist. You can tell i didn't listen much at school.
Cheers everyone
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- Helmutcrab
Frequent Poster - Posts: 521 Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:00 am Location: County Durham, UK
Re: I don't like the songs i write
I have often felt that I wanted to write something different than what is coming out of my hands.I find the best way to do that is to listen to songs I don't know, or even better, genres I don't know or don't like.
Not the same as "not liking the songs I write", but if you decide the solution to that is to write different kinds of songs, maybe the above could be of some help.
Regards,
Not the same as "not liking the songs I write", but if you decide the solution to that is to write different kinds of songs, maybe the above could be of some help.
Regards,
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- alexis
Longtime Poster - Posts: 5257 Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2003 12:00 am Location: Hampton Roads, Virginia, USA
Home of the The SLUM Tapes (Shoulda Left Un-Mixed), mangled using Cubase Pro 14; W10 64 bit on Intel i5-4570 3.2GHz,16GB RAM;Steinberg UR28M interface; Juno DS88; UAD2 Solo/Native; Revoice Pro
Re: I don't like the songs i write
Saw this recently.
http://diymusician.cdbaby.com/2013/09/why-you-should-be-writing-bad-songs-and-lots-of-em/
Seems like if you're not writing cap tunes then you're not writing enough.
http://diymusician.cdbaby.com/2013/09/why-you-should-be-writing-bad-songs-and-lots-of-em/
Seems like if you're not writing cap tunes then you're not writing enough.
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- Lord Of Tea
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Posts: 34 Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:00 am
Contact:
Re: I don't like the songs i write
Just one further thought to add...
You are falling into the trap of conflating 'Like/Dislike' with 'Good/Bad'. But you are making a false link. Whether you like or dislike something is an emotional, subjective, response; whether something is good or bad is an objective measure.
Most people have a shorthand that says 'things I like are good, things I don't like are bad' but it rarely stands up to scrutiny. It's just a mechanism for getting through life with your sanity intact.And we have even developed strategies to justify liking bad things or disliking good things. We all have 'guilty pleasures', things aren't naff but 'kitsch', opera is for snobs... you get my meaning.
It is perfectly natural to like some bad art, and hate some great art. Everyone does it to a greater or lesser extent. And I would even argue that it is essential for a creative artist to dislike their work. Because the minute they are satisfied with what they have produced they have no motivation to do any more.
Your only problem is misplaced integrity. If people think your work is good enough to buy, they are probably right. If people think you are good enough to approach to commission work, they are probably right. Clearly, your work is good enough to speak for itself. Do it, and let it stand on it's own two feet. And then use your dissatisfaction to generate more good work that you don't like. And repeat as necessary until your bank account is filled to overflowing or you can't be bothered any more.
Andy
You are falling into the trap of conflating 'Like/Dislike' with 'Good/Bad'. But you are making a false link. Whether you like or dislike something is an emotional, subjective, response; whether something is good or bad is an objective measure.
Most people have a shorthand that says 'things I like are good, things I don't like are bad' but it rarely stands up to scrutiny. It's just a mechanism for getting through life with your sanity intact.And we have even developed strategies to justify liking bad things or disliking good things. We all have 'guilty pleasures', things aren't naff but 'kitsch', opera is for snobs... you get my meaning.
It is perfectly natural to like some bad art, and hate some great art. Everyone does it to a greater or lesser extent. And I would even argue that it is essential for a creative artist to dislike their work. Because the minute they are satisfied with what they have produced they have no motivation to do any more.
Your only problem is misplaced integrity. If people think your work is good enough to buy, they are probably right. If people think you are good enough to approach to commission work, they are probably right. Clearly, your work is good enough to speak for itself. Do it, and let it stand on it's own two feet. And then use your dissatisfaction to generate more good work that you don't like. And repeat as necessary until your bank account is filled to overflowing or you can't be bothered any more.
Andy
Is it about a bicycle?
Re: I don't like the songs i write
I cannot recommend highly enough the encouraging and supportive community at the February Album Writing Month (guess when) and the Fifty Ninety Challenge (july to october).
Write Songs
Record Them
Upload them to the site
Get loads of great feedback from people with similar issues to yours
Feel Better
(And don't forget to give as much feedback as you receive or more)
FAWM
Write Songs
Record Them
Upload them to the site
Get loads of great feedback from people with similar issues to yours
Feel Better
(And don't forget to give as much feedback as you receive or more)
FAWM
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- Daniel Davis
Regular - Posts: 431 Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:00 am
Re: I don't like the songs i write
It's just a mechanism for getting through life with your sanity intact.
You are a wise man, my friend
Silver Spoon - Check out our latest video and the FB page
Re: I don't like the songs i write
I find that time is a great critic - I hew away at the coalface of composition and come up with stuff I might like or I might not. As often as not I leave it for a few months (or even, occasionally, years) then come back to it and give myself a fresh look at it. After time has passed I find I'm both more critical - spotting obvious shortcomings - and less critical - accepting what I write and looking at it as if somebody else wrote it.
Don't forget that, as said above, liking it is not a lot do do with how 'good' it is, and that even the finest creators have their own heroes that make them feel inadequate. Lennie Bernstein, for example, a brilliant all-round musician and composer, was blown away by the 'tricks' of the show arrangers who orchestrated West Side Story for him. It's easy to overthink all this, especially as thinking about it is easier than doing it, usually. If the whole thing's making you miserable, you may just have to do what most depressed people do and 'keep buggering on' anyway.
In my younger days I found that lots of sex took my mind off music - about the only thing that did. Now, as an older parent, the kids blot it out most of the time. Different frustrations, but I get to do some stuff occasionally and they may be off my back before I peg out ... and i still have music to take my mind off the lack of sex.
Don't forget that, as said above, liking it is not a lot do do with how 'good' it is, and that even the finest creators have their own heroes that make them feel inadequate. Lennie Bernstein, for example, a brilliant all-round musician and composer, was blown away by the 'tricks' of the show arrangers who orchestrated West Side Story for him. It's easy to overthink all this, especially as thinking about it is easier than doing it, usually. If the whole thing's making you miserable, you may just have to do what most depressed people do and 'keep buggering on' anyway.
In my younger days I found that lots of sex took my mind off music - about the only thing that did. Now, as an older parent, the kids blot it out most of the time. Different frustrations, but I get to do some stuff occasionally and they may be off my back before I peg out ... and i still have music to take my mind off the lack of sex.
Re: I don't like the songs i write
Daniel Davis wrote:I cannot recommend highly enough the encouraging and supportive community at the February Album Writing Month (guess when)
Write Songs
Record Them
Upload them to the site
Get loads of great feedback from people with similar issues to yours
Feel Better
(And don't forget to give as much feedback as you receive or more)
FAWM
+1
FAWM taught me a lot about myself and went a long way towards repairing this complex and dysfunctional relationship I have with music. And it also massively improved my songwriting and process, and changed my attitude to writing and myself as a musician...
..............................mu:zines | music magazine archive | difficultAudio | Legacy Logic Project Conversion
Re: I don't like the songs i write
zenguitar wrote:You are falling into the trap of conflating 'Like/Dislike' with 'Good/Bad'. But you are making a false link. Whether you like or dislike something is an emotional, subjective, response; whether something is good or bad is an objective measure.
Agree with everything you said but the objective measure bit - there is no objective measure in art. What you determine to be good of bad *is* entirely independent of the like/dislike measure, but you assessment of whether something is good or bad is anything but objective, it's based on your abilities as a musician, your experiences, you values, your sense of what "good" is.
As an example, I value good songwriting, and don't value rap, in general. However, there are many people who do not value good songwriting at all, but rap and rhythm speaks to them in ways that more closely fit in with there own values. Who's right? I'm right, and they are right - we just don't agree on why
But yes, I like some awful things, and dislike some amazingly good things, and it's important to understand the difference in the value judgement...
..............................mu:zines | music magazine archive | difficultAudio | Legacy Logic Project Conversion
Re: I don't like the songs i write
As far as writing and forgetting goes, we've all got mobile phones, and they all have some means of recording you singing into them. If they don't enforce some crappy compression then playing a guitar should work OK too. Sure, they can't handle metal gig levels, but you can at least get the basic lyrics and song structure recorded. If you have a phone, you have no excuse for ever losing an idea.
I had a phase of writing a bit, a few years ago. (For various personal reasons, I'm not writing at the moment, but I know it'll come back.) Putting the voice-recording app on my phone in a place where I could run it with about two clicks, I could record anything that came to mind immediately, and listen back when I got time. Usually I'd think up stuff in the car, so a Dictaphone is a load more useful than a pad of paper! Most of it was crap, sure, but that's what you expect. And what was worth saving got saved.
I had a phase of writing a bit, a few years ago. (For various personal reasons, I'm not writing at the moment, but I know it'll come back.) Putting the voice-recording app on my phone in a place where I could run it with about two clicks, I could record anything that came to mind immediately, and listen back when I got time. Usually I'd think up stuff in the car, so a Dictaphone is a load more useful than a pad of paper! Most of it was crap, sure, but that's what you expect. And what was worth saving got saved.
Re: I don't like the songs i write
I am blown away by all these helpful and insightful posts. Its not just me after all !
I am confused by the like / dislike - good / bad thing though. I understand there are songs that don't really appeal to me but i think they have accomplished ( good ) songwriting, but i am confused as to how to interpret that with my own songs.
Are people saying you should release the songs you think are good / have the most merits irrespective of whether you personally like them/enjoy playing them ?
The problem i have if that is true is that i have always wanted to write songs that i like and feel passionate about rather than write songs that i think are good or catchy.
I have many means of recording songs and always record every idea i come up with regardless of how rubbish or small it is, except for the few times i have written something i actually like - i then seem to be so relaxed i don't bother recording it and then kick myself afterwards. That seems strange.
I might be being totally naive here or a bit thick ( it wouldn't be the first time ), so please correct me if i am but If you are doing music as a career, is it not important to like the songs you have to play every night ? ( otherwise you won't get any satisfaction ) and If you are doing it as a hobby, why would you spend a lot of time developing/finishing/producing music you don't like the initial ideas of ?
The artists who i am inspired by have all said they like the music they write and that it was immensely satisfying finishing a particular bunch of songs. In fact most of them have thought it was great - I know i do too.
I can now understand that other people might like my music when i might not, but from a selfish point of view i still won't be getting anything out of it other than a little money maybe and i can't imagine gaining much of a following if i don't look like i am enjoying myself doing it.
I seem a bit confused with this and it seems an important point people are making.
Cheers
I am confused by the like / dislike - good / bad thing though. I understand there are songs that don't really appeal to me but i think they have accomplished ( good ) songwriting, but i am confused as to how to interpret that with my own songs.
Are people saying you should release the songs you think are good / have the most merits irrespective of whether you personally like them/enjoy playing them ?
The problem i have if that is true is that i have always wanted to write songs that i like and feel passionate about rather than write songs that i think are good or catchy.
I have many means of recording songs and always record every idea i come up with regardless of how rubbish or small it is, except for the few times i have written something i actually like - i then seem to be so relaxed i don't bother recording it and then kick myself afterwards. That seems strange.
I might be being totally naive here or a bit thick ( it wouldn't be the first time ), so please correct me if i am but If you are doing music as a career, is it not important to like the songs you have to play every night ? ( otherwise you won't get any satisfaction ) and If you are doing it as a hobby, why would you spend a lot of time developing/finishing/producing music you don't like the initial ideas of ?
The artists who i am inspired by have all said they like the music they write and that it was immensely satisfying finishing a particular bunch of songs. In fact most of them have thought it was great - I know i do too.
I can now understand that other people might like my music when i might not, but from a selfish point of view i still won't be getting anything out of it other than a little money maybe and i can't imagine gaining much of a following if i don't look like i am enjoying myself doing it.
I seem a bit confused with this and it seems an important point people are making.
Cheers
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- Helmutcrab
Frequent Poster - Posts: 521 Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:00 am Location: County Durham, UK
Re: I don't like the songs i write
I do see exactly where you are coming from Desmond. And while I would agree that in the arts objective measures are far harder to define than, for example, in hard sciences I would still contend that they are still there.
To pick up on your contrast between songwriting and rap I would argue that both communities have measures of what is good and what is bad. They aren't measured against metrics, but by reference to established high points in the genre and the work of contemporaries. So the songwriting community are able to rate the quality of songs, and the rap community are able to rate the quality of rap styles. So you can hear a rap piece and say 'I don't like that' but you can then get a measure of it's quality by reference to how it is rated by the rap community.
That was what I had in mind as the good/bad measure.
Andy
To pick up on your contrast between songwriting and rap I would argue that both communities have measures of what is good and what is bad. They aren't measured against metrics, but by reference to established high points in the genre and the work of contemporaries. So the songwriting community are able to rate the quality of songs, and the rap community are able to rate the quality of rap styles. So you can hear a rap piece and say 'I don't like that' but you can then get a measure of it's quality by reference to how it is rated by the rap community.
That was what I had in mind as the good/bad measure.
Andy
Is it about a bicycle?
Re: I don't like the songs i write
If I were to make a sweeping statement about songwriters it would be that when we are happy we go out to the pub, meet friends, dance, make love etc, but do NOT write songs. That we do when we are melancholy. If all the songwriters of the world found happy stable relationships there would be few songs written, because writing songs is not what you think first of doing when you are happy.
This inevitably colours the songs which are written. And I guess it would not be surprising that a songwriter in happier times might look back at his unhappy songs and think that they are morose. Or a songwriter in unhappy times might look at happy songs as shallow. Maybe. I really admire someone who can write a happy song that isn't cheesy. Ok, I sometimes like a cheesy song. But good happy songs are rare morsels to be savoured. My realtionships with a song is a dynamic thing. At some point a song can mean the world to me, at another I think meh, and at another I hate it. But I may come back to love it all over again. And songs can have relationships with many people. Long after you abandon a song it may find resonance with someone else. Anything written with sincerity is a keeper.
This inevitably colours the songs which are written. And I guess it would not be surprising that a songwriter in happier times might look back at his unhappy songs and think that they are morose. Or a songwriter in unhappy times might look at happy songs as shallow. Maybe. I really admire someone who can write a happy song that isn't cheesy. Ok, I sometimes like a cheesy song. But good happy songs are rare morsels to be savoured. My realtionships with a song is a dynamic thing. At some point a song can mean the world to me, at another I think meh, and at another I hate it. But I may come back to love it all over again. And songs can have relationships with many people. Long after you abandon a song it may find resonance with someone else. Anything written with sincerity is a keeper.
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- Daniel Davis
Regular - Posts: 431 Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:00 am
Re: I don't like the songs i write
There's also that thing where stuff 'just happens'. Some of the best (and most successful) songs (reportedly) took half an hour to write ... or less.
Diane Warren is probably the most successful songwriter of modern times and many of her songs are put together in an afternoon and go on to sell bloody millions. The excellent 'Unbreak My Heart' just 'happened' it seems but I seem to recall reading that the inspiration came from her interesting lyrical angle of 'Unbreak my heart' ... after that, it just all came together fairly quickly...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2Rch6WvPJE
And it's an exquisite lyrical idea ... like 10cc's 'I'm Not In Love' ... reverse lyrical logic proving to be the inspiration. All sorts of things can trigger something off.
Some of the nonsense I make 'just happens'. I have an odd way way of working that I shan't bore you with - let's just say that it's a bit old school, early Radiophonic - but serendipity can play an important part in the way it all comes together in the end.
There are many ways to get to one's destination - maybe travel a different road!
Diane Warren is probably the most successful songwriter of modern times and many of her songs are put together in an afternoon and go on to sell bloody millions. The excellent 'Unbreak My Heart' just 'happened' it seems but I seem to recall reading that the inspiration came from her interesting lyrical angle of 'Unbreak my heart' ... after that, it just all came together fairly quickly...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2Rch6WvPJE
And it's an exquisite lyrical idea ... like 10cc's 'I'm Not In Love' ... reverse lyrical logic proving to be the inspiration. All sorts of things can trigger something off.
Some of the nonsense I make 'just happens'. I have an odd way way of working that I shan't bore you with - let's just say that it's a bit old school, early Radiophonic - but serendipity can play an important part in the way it all comes together in the end.
There are many ways to get to one's destination - maybe travel a different road!
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- hollowsun
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Re: I don't like the songs i write
zenguitar wrote:I do see exactly where you are coming from Desmond. And while I would agree that in the arts objective measures are far harder to define than, for example, in hard sciences I would still contend that they are still there.
Yeah, sort of. I was reinforcing the point that what's "good" is still a subjective assessment which will vary with the observer - but you know this.
zenguitar wrote:To pick up on your contrast between songwriting and rap I would argue that both communities have measures of what is good and what is bad. They aren't measured against metrics, but by reference to established high points in the genre and the work of contemporaries. So the songwriting community are able to rate the quality of songs, and the rap community are able to rate the quality of rap styles. So you can hear a rap piece and say 'I don't like that' but you can then get a measure of it's quality by reference to how it is rated by the rap community.
That was what I had in mind as the good/bad measure.
Sure, I do agree with that too. In other words, we are making different and contrasting points, but both agree we are both right.
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Re: I don't like the songs i write
hollowsun wrote:Diane Warren is probably the most successful songwriter of modern times and many of her songs are put together in an afternoon and go on to sell bloody millions.
Indeed. But let's not forget she is not at all a typical songwriter, she was obsessed and driven to write songs from a very early age and has spent nearly all day, every day, for the better part of her life, writing songs. She is a finely tuned expertly skilled master at song construction - of course, you still need to noodle around to find ideas, but you also need skill and discipline to refine those ideas and turn them into a finished, satisfying piece.
It's kinda like photography - if you want to show off 7 amazing pictures, you have to shoot maybe ten thousand pictures to get there. If you want to have a portfolio of amazing songs, you probably need to spend a lifetime doing it.
hollowsun wrote:Some of the nonsense I make 'just happens'. I have an odd way way of working that I shan't bore you with - let's just say that it's a bit old school, early Radiophonic - but serendipity can play an important part in the way it all comes together in the end.
Indeed. But to have a good output, you need to a) be able to put yourself in position to be creative and come up with ideas and b) have the skills, taste and discipline to distill, refine and combine the best ideas into their final polished form, and do it a lot, with the ability to find new ways of expressing yourself, not repeating yourself, and striving to do better.
When I was a kid, making music with friends, I guess we'd get really happy when we'd written and finished a new song that we thought was decent. You can sit back and relax, you'd finished something, feel satisfied and enjoy it. Maybe we'd finish the next song in a couple of months, whatever. No biggy, no pressure, it was for fun after all, and no one was chasing us for finished songs and so on. Lyrics for me are particularly hard, as I set myself a fairly high bar (we're not talking "ooh" "yeah" "baby" and "love" type generic crap here
When I did, say, FAWM, where you write 14 songs in February (that's 1 song every other day) - well, I wrote my first song, thought it was ok, then immediately went on to the next song. That was better, and I'd written and finished two songs in a day. Feeling pleased I noodled around for the next idea. Three or four songs in, and you start to feel like you might not be able to keep coming up with stuff, but the pressure of getting on with it, finding and idea and refining and completing it quickly was very positive, and each song was getting better. Of course, not everything is your best song, and you can always go back and refine later, but the pressure of not sweating too much about finer details and just getting the song done keeps everything sharp. You don't have time to do too much critical self-examining, it something isn't working you find something else to replace it, and get on with it.
So ask yourself - if you were full-time writing, say, five songs a week, for a whole year - 250+ songs - do your instincts get better, quicker, your skills refine and sharpen, and the overall quality goes up as your skills increase. And with that much opportunity for serendipity, you might find that more than a few of those songs are the best thing you've done to date...
It's not about perfection (there is no such thing in art) and you will probably *always* see the flaws in what you make. But your perspective about your work is shared by you alone. Everyone else in the world couldn't have done what you did, and many of them have no skills or ability to create anything at all - that puts you in a privileged position. If you make a song you didn't particularly think was that great, but it moved and touched other people and became important in their lives - does it not have value? The same as if you wrote something which you thought was the best thing you ever did, but no-one else liked it - it still has value. Art speaks differently to different people, at different times, for different reasons.
The world is full of top class artists gigging their greatest hits night after night around the world, and despite earning a lot of money off them and being grateful for them, a good percentage kinda dread doing them one more time. It's the age old thing where a one hit wonder wants to gig his new album of his best, genuinely really good material, and all the crowd are interested in him doing is performing the novelty hit record he had when he was a kid thirty years ago...
I guess what I'm trying to say is that it is all about perspectives of how you view and treat your material. Is it genuinely crap? Maybe you aren't working hard enough, or just don't have those skills to come up with interesting ideas, or refine them into a finished piece. If so, there is a path to improve those things. Or are you just transferring feelings about yourself onto the things you create - which is less about your work, and more about you..?
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Re: I don't like the songs i write
Helmutcrab wrote:I am confused by the like / dislike - good / bad thing though. I understand there are songs that don't really appeal to me but i think they have accomplished ( good ) songwriting, but i am confused as to how to interpret that with my own songs.
If you went to some of the greatest artists or songwriters, and showed them your songs, what would they think of them?
Helmutcrab wrote:Are people saying you should release the songs you think are good / have the most merits irrespective of whether you personally like them/enjoy playing them ?
This is all part of an individuals output. We all do this for a variety of reasons. The parameters will vary depending on the material - you will treat an album of your own material differently to if you are co-producing a local artists material, or if you are churning out cheap library music on the internet and so on. You make the decisions you want to for the things you want to do.
Helmutcrab wrote:The problem i have if that is true is that i have always wanted to write songs that i like and feel passionate about rather than write songs that i think are good or catchy.
Great - so you already know where your values lie. I've never met anyone who writes music they don't like. Every choice you make is based on your tastes. if I'm noodling around with a chord sequence on a guitar and singing a melody over the top, I'm not going to go "Oh, that chord sequence is dreadfully dull and obvious, and the melody I just sung was really bland - that's the one I am going to base this song around"... No, you play until you find something that works, you sing until you find something that sparks an idea or a core of something, then you flesh out, extend until that tiny spark ignites into a flame of something that now exists where moments before it didn't.
Helmutcrab wrote:I might be being totally naive here or a bit thick ( it wouldn't be the first time ), so please correct me if i am but If you are doing music as a career, is it not important to like the songs you have to play every night ?
Well, I think it helps, but doing anything ten thousand times gets dull.
Helmutcrab wrote:If you are doing it as a hobby, why would you spend a lot of time developing/finishing/producing music you don't like the initial ideas of ?
I don't know why I would develop an idea I didn't like. How I work is I play until I come up with something I like, or is interesting, or is different to previous stuff. It doesn't have to be complex. But as you breathe on that spark, hopefully you work on it until it gets to some point where the shape of it becomes distinct, rather than a fuzzy ill-defined vague thing.
Not everything you do will be good, but I'm certainly guilty of throwing away or abandoning things that, with greater skill or discipline could become something rally good indeed. Sometimes songs are hard faught, every line or melody or chord feels like a battle. Other times, it happens quickly and almost feels like the song is already there and is almost writing itself, and for some strange reason it's chosen to reveal itself to you.
Helmutcrab wrote:The artists who i am inspired by have all said they like the music they write and that it was immensely satisfying finishing a particular bunch of songs. In fact most of them have thought it was great - I know i do too.
I *like* everything I do, or at least there will be elements I like, but that doesn't make everything I do *good*. I *most* like the things i do that I perceive as good, that I perceive as being much better than everything else. Any musician should be able to easily churn out *ok* music by the bucketload - it's that we strive and work hard for for the small percentage of something really good that differentiates us.
I could record every idea, melody, chord sequence I play and so on, but I don't get much value in that. I will start with an idea, which might be a lyric, or an emotion, or something I want to say, or a nice melody or keyboard/guitar part that makes me want to develop fuller. Sometimes those little sparks don't turn into anything, fizzle out and die. Others give birth to something that has a life of it's own.
I guess - why do I still do this? Because fundamentally I have a love for it, it satisfies me and I like to create. It doesn't mean it is easy, and I don't settle for the first bit of crap that comes from my fingers, I explore until I find something that makes me want to develop it - and from there, who knows what will happen...
If you don't have a love for it, don't enjoy it, don't like the things you are playing and writing, don't get satisfaction from it and aren't driven to do it - then why exactly *do* you do it?
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Re: I don't like the songs i write
desmond wrote: Sure, I do agree with that too. In other words, we are making different and contrasting points, but both agree we are both right.
Yep, no dispute there Desmond.
Andy
Is it about a bicycle?
Re: I don't like the songs i write
Thanks very much for spending the time to answer all those questions Desmond, it is much appreciated.
[/quote] " If you went to some of the greatest artists or songwriters, and showed them your songs, what would they think of them? " [/quote]
I asked myself that question and thought they would think they are crap. I asked my wife and she said she doesn't think they would think that at all. And there lies the problem. I need to acknowledge my achievements regardless of how small i think they are as without doing so i am not even accepting that i am a songwriter or anything that i have done. It is all to easy to become terminally dissatisfied with what you've done by being too critical and judgemental and that is the trap i have fallen into. That stops the process of creativity which is allowing yourself to write whatever comes to you whether good or bad without judgement ( at least initially ). Realistically, i believe i have not recorded music that reflects what i am capable of doing at my best but without accepting what i have done in the past as having some merit i will not be able to approach that and i think part of that is getting songs already written out and letting them stand on their own feet as Andy said.
[/quote] " If you don't have a love for it, don't enjoy it, don't like the things you are playing and writing, don't get satisfaction from it and aren't driven to do it - then why exactly *do* you do it? [/quote]
I do have a very strong love for it and have a compulsion to do it. I think the enjoyment, liking and satisfaction are all marred considerably by not accepting i have done something of merit even if i don't feel it is the best i can do.
As has already been mentioned, it is a complicated subject and i genuinely know i have not recorded the music that i know i can write, but i should not be passing off all the years of songs I've written as being not good enough. They were an honest interpretation of the way i felt at that time and art does imitate life and life can be hard, so they do have meaning and relevance and are surely worth something.
Many thanks
[/quote] " If you went to some of the greatest artists or songwriters, and showed them your songs, what would they think of them? " [/quote]
I asked myself that question and thought they would think they are crap. I asked my wife and she said she doesn't think they would think that at all. And there lies the problem. I need to acknowledge my achievements regardless of how small i think they are as without doing so i am not even accepting that i am a songwriter or anything that i have done. It is all to easy to become terminally dissatisfied with what you've done by being too critical and judgemental and that is the trap i have fallen into. That stops the process of creativity which is allowing yourself to write whatever comes to you whether good or bad without judgement ( at least initially ). Realistically, i believe i have not recorded music that reflects what i am capable of doing at my best but without accepting what i have done in the past as having some merit i will not be able to approach that and i think part of that is getting songs already written out and letting them stand on their own feet as Andy said.
[/quote] " If you don't have a love for it, don't enjoy it, don't like the things you are playing and writing, don't get satisfaction from it and aren't driven to do it - then why exactly *do* you do it? [/quote]
I do have a very strong love for it and have a compulsion to do it. I think the enjoyment, liking and satisfaction are all marred considerably by not accepting i have done something of merit even if i don't feel it is the best i can do.
As has already been mentioned, it is a complicated subject and i genuinely know i have not recorded the music that i know i can write, but i should not be passing off all the years of songs I've written as being not good enough. They were an honest interpretation of the way i felt at that time and art does imitate life and life can be hard, so they do have meaning and relevance and are surely worth something.
Many thanks
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- Helmutcrab
Frequent Poster - Posts: 521 Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:00 am Location: County Durham, UK