Next step up (mics, recorder) for location recordings?

[dickiefunk]

Hi,

I've just spent the past few days doing a location recording of a vocal sextet. Most of the mics I borrowed for this session but would like to buy my own set as I'm looking to do a lot more of this work.
The gear that I own so far is :-

Neumann Kh120a monitors
Allen & Heath QU16 mixer
Beyer DT880 pro headphones

mics:

Neumann TLM 102
Audio Technica AT 4040
Rode NT1 (new black version)

For this session I was able to borrow a pair of Rode NT5's and a pair of Audio Technica AT 4040's.

What I would like to buy first is a decent pair of SDC's as I don't own any at the moment. I would like to try a get as good a pair of these as I can because i find having decent mics can make a big difference to the end result. I would like to have the option of using Omni pickup pattern as well as cardioid.
I have been very impressed with the Rode NT5's performance over the past few days and found them to be very detailed with low noise. I was also surprised to find they only cost around £240 for a matched pair! Are there any other options you would recommend for under £500 a pair that would be a step up from the NT5's? After looking around I have heard good comments for the SE Electronics SE4's and Oktava MK012's. Also, the JZ Microphones BT201 looks like another candidate but I can't find many user experiences with these? What I would like to buy is the mics which will give me the least amount of noise and the most natural detailed sound.

Once I have a decent pair of SDC's I am considering buying another AT 4040 or two as I found these worked great for capturing the ambience of the church. Also, they work great for close miked vocals.

Finally whilst the Allen & Heath performed brilliantly during the days we recorded the manual does say that it is not recommended to do lots of playbacks from the hard drive using QU drive. This is something I would really like to be able to do and on the past few days the producer wanted to do this so we risked it and thankfully everything worked fine. However, I am a little wary about doing this as Allen & Heath do say not to do this because it will cause fragmenting of the hard drive.

If this is going to be an issue that may cause un reliability then I will need a different system (possibly a dedicated location mixer/recorder). However, if it's ok to keep working this way with the QU16 then I'm very happy to continue as it's workflow was a joy to use.

What would you suggest?

Thanks

[matt keen]

NT5 pair with a pair of extra OMNI heads is what I use a lot these days

I think the kit is called NT55 so is here http://www.thomann.de/gb/rode_nt55_mp.htm
Good kit

There are hundreds of other options but if you use that kit and get a bad sound it wont be the fault of the mics IMO

[The Elf]

A step up from the NT5 in cardiod might be Neumann KM184s. I really like those mic's for their honesty and delicacy.

An alternative step up might be the Rode NT55, the omni caps of which really are as good as everyone here will tell you. With these you're getting the best of the NT5, the addition of top class omnis and thewelcome inclusion of filter/pad switches. Well worth it IMO.

The other SDCs I use often are my MXL 603s. These are much better mic's than their price suggests. I bought some no-name omni caps for mine and really feel like I fell on my feet.

[Bob Bickerton]

Like others here I'd recommend the NT55s with the cardioid and omni options if that's your budget. I'm not sure there's a huge amount to be gained by going from the Rode's to the Neumann KM Series. My current go to SDCs for location recording are the Sennheiser MKH 8000 series, especially the 8020 and 8050, but you're probably not thinking of that sort of investment.

Rather than get an extra 4040, I'd be inclined to get a pair of omnis plus a pair of cardioids SDCs.

Done understand why playing back would be a problem with the Allen and Heath. If it's not really a problem then mic investment is your best priority.

Bob

[dickiefunk]

Thanks guys. Yes I have to admit the Rodes are very impressive little mics. My only concern is maybe a little noise when recording pianissimo vocals? I'd like to be able to capture these with real clarity and detail without as little noise as possible?

The QU16 worked fine. My only concern is that Allen & Heath specifically say not to mix up playback and recording? Also, there is a bit of a stutter and click when playing back which is not on the actual recording and I would prefer the tracks to load quicker. However, the Samsung hard drive I'm using is 5400rpm so a faster hard drive may improve this?

I'll try to speak to Allen & Heath tomorrow and see what they say. If all is ok I am extremely happy to stick with the QU16.

Has anyone heard the JZ BT201's?

[The Elf]

Thanks guys. Yes I have to admit the Rodes are very impressive little mics. My only concern is maybe a little noise when recording pianissimo vocals? I'd like to be able to capture these with real clarity and detail without as little noise as possible?

This has never once entered my mind with any of the mic's mentioned above.

For your stated budget you'll do just fine.

If you really want to address ultra-low noise as a priority then make sure that your pockets are deep and re-think that budget!

And check how quiet your mixer's pre-amps are - no point looking for ultra-low-noise mic's if you are throwing them through a relatively noisy pre.

[dickiefunk]

Thanks guys. Yes I have to admit the Rodes are very impressive little mics. My only concern is maybe a little noise when recording pianissimo vocals? I'd like to be able to capture these with real clarity and detail without as little noise as possible?

This has never once entered my mind with any of the mic's mentioned above.

For your stated budget you'll do just fine.

If you really want to address ultra-low noise as a priority then make sure that your pockets are deep and re-think that budget!

And check how quiet your mixer's pre-amps are - no point looking for ultra-low-noise mic's if you are throwing them through a relatively noisy pre.

This is what I'm wondering. Are mics like the Shure KSM 141 or JZ Microphones BH201 going to be noticeably quieter than the Rodes or will the performance be pretty much the same? I didn't find noise to be an issue so far but I guess I'm trying to buy the best option I can afford to get the best results.

I don't the the QU16 preamps are noisy but I'll have a real close listen to them to make sure.

[Bob Bickerton]

The KSM141 comes in with a self noise of 14dBA compared to the NT55 (omni/cardioid head) at 15 dBA, so not much in it there. Can find specs on the JZ mic, which says something in itself! Nothing wrong with going for quieter mics, but 15dBA is fine for most real world situations and as Elf says, your preamps may be more of an issue, maybe not.

The omni head of the NT55 is really very good and you'd never really outgrow it.

Bob

[dickiefunk]

There are plenty of specs on the JZ mic's here :-

http://www.jzmic.com/en/products/19

http://www.jzmic.com/en/products/28

http://www.jzmic.com/en/products/30

http://www.jzmic.com/en/products/35

[Bob Bickerton]

They look good on paper........

Bob

[John Willett]

A step up from the NT5 in cardioid might be Neumann KM184s. I really like those mic's for their honesty and delicacy.

I agree - but these are more *each* than the OP wants to pay for a *pair*.

[The Elf]

A step up from the NT5 in cardioid might be Neumann KM184s. I really like those mic's for their honesty and delicacy.

I agree - but these are more *each* than the OP wants to pay for a *pair*.

I'm thinking second-hand. My pair were purchased just above that budget.

[dickiefunk]

Just been doing a quick bit of pricing for the various mics I'm interested in :-

Oktava MK012 pair just cardioid caps :- £237
Rode NT5 pair just cardioid caps :- £237
Oktava MK012 pair with cardioid + omni & -10db caps :- £324
JZ Microphones BT-201 pair with just cardioid caps :- £332
Rode NT5 pair with omni capsules :- £357
Oktava MK012 pair with cardioid + hyper cardioid + omni + -10db caps :- £385
Rode NT55 pair with cardioid + omni caps :- £455
SE Electronics SE4 pair just cardioid caps :- £455
JZ Microphones BT-201 pair with cardioid + open cardiod + open cardioid -20db :- £635
Shure KSM141 pair cardiod & omni :- £738
SE Electronics SE4 pair with omni and hyper cardioid capsules :- £934

Having done my pricing up I've ruled out the SE Electronics SE4, Shure KSM141 and possible the JZ Microphones BT201 with extra capsules.
My list now consists of :-

Rode NT5
Rode NT55
Oktava MK012
JZ Microphones BT-201 (without capsules)

I'm a little put off the Oktava MK012's because of the varying build quality and various reporting that the mics can sound noticeably different between batches!? Also these have higher self noise than the Rodes and JZ mics?
The Rode's look like they offer excellent all round value and pretty decent performance. Is there any other differences between the NT5 and NT55? Do these mics sound the same? The specs look a little different including the self noise being a fraction lower with the NT55 which I doubt is noticeable?
The JZ BT-201 mics are relatively new and there is not a lot of user experience with them online?

[matt keen]

nt5 and 55 are identical sound wise
should i say - i cant tell the difference

they were good enough so that i sold my gefell m300's

dont get me wrong - the gefell's were better but not by enough for me to justify keeping them

but it was a part time employment for me then, but still thats my experience

[dickiefunk]

That's good to know Matt.

[dickiefunk]

I'm wondering why people use SDC's instead of LDC's for stereo miking on location recordings for choirs and classical ensembles etc?

[dickiefunk]

Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on using multi-pattern stereo pairs LDC's like the CAD M179, Rode NT1000 or Rode NT2a vs the SDC Rode NT55's?

[Bob Bickerton]

SDCs have a better transient response and often LDCs have 'character' as oppoosed to neutrality. Not familiar with the M179, but the NT2a and NT1000 would firmly remain in their cases under such circumstances (don't much like them period). Possible use as spot mics, but then you've got the 4040 for that.

Exception to the rule would be the TLM193/TLM170, which are actually medium DCs, but again out of your budget.

I'm finding these days that I hardly ever do any location recording without omni room or outriggers, even for small ensembles. I just love the openess and warmth I get from adding a little omni into the mix.

Bob

[Hugh Robjohns]

I'm wondering why people use SDC's instead of LDC's for stereo miking on location recordings for choirs and classical ensembles etc?

The main thing is much better off-axis response, so off-axis sounds (reverb and audience etc) sound far less coloured. Also better transient response, and less HF resonance artefacts. And they are smaller and less visually intrusive of course.

H

[Mike Stranks]

... and just to muddy the waters... Line Audio CM3. Wide cardioid and a bit slower on transients, but very well thought of, very keenly priced and very flat response - particularly off-axis. Output is a little lower than some other mics, but shouldn't be an issue.

... and just veering off-topic... I've now got my Superlux 502 and shall be putting it through its paces in the near future.

[dickiefunk]

Thought I'd post an update as to where I am with this.

I have just ordered a pair of the JZ BT201/3s as I'm curious to hear these mics. I am hoping to do a comparison of these and the Rode NT5's that I borrowed. If I prefer Rodes I'll send the JZ mics back and buy a pair of NT55's.

I'm not going to bother with buying a dedicated field recorder as the Allen & Heath QU16 performed brilliantly! I'm thinking the money would be better spent on mics!

[dickiefunk]

I took the JZ BT201's to a studio earlier today to try out. They had a choir there rehearsing and I was able to compare the BT201's to Rode NT5's.

First thing we were surprised to hear was that the Rode's had double the output of the JZ's!? This may be an issue as I will be using these mainly for classical location work and I want to avoid hiss where possible on extremely quiet passages.
Tonally, the JZ BT201's had a little more "air" to them but sounded thinner in the lower frequencies.

I recently heard a pair of AKG C451b's and have to say these impressed me a lot. I'm hoping to borrow them next week to compare to the Rodes and hear how they compare but noticed that according to the specs they have lower output than the JZ's and higher self noise!?

Maybe I'll just get a pair of Rode NT55's

[oggyb]

I recently heard a pair of AKG C451b's and have to say these impressed me a lot. I'm hoping to borrow them next week to compare to the Rodes and hear how they compare but noticed that according to the specs they have lower output than the JZ's and higher self noise!?

Maybe I'll just get a pair of Rode NT55's

The C451 series are super nice mics, particularly good on acoustic guitar, if you ever intend to use them for that. I've not had any problem with self noise actually, but mileage, as they say, varies.

I've never considered the Rodents to be amazing, but I have certainly used them on a bunch of stuff from drums to choirs with decent results. I find them... slightly metallic sounding.

Beyer MC930s are a little over budget, but consider them and look into second hand prices.
http://www.dv247.com/microphones/beyerd ... set--58435

[dickiefunk]

Another mic that has come up is the Peluso CEMC-6

http://www.pelusomicrophonelab.com/microphones/CEMC6.html

I know Peluso make good mics so am going to see if KMR has a demo pair they can send me. Would be interesting to hear the Rode NT5's against the Peluso CEMC-6 and AKGc451b.

The Beyer's are cardioid only and I would like something that at least does both omni and cardioid.

[chris...]

What recorder you thinking of getting ?

They're aren't all that many with XLR inputs / phantom power, that are also good, and have low-noise mic pres.

Such things do exist, but the better ones aren't cheap.

You might be as well just taking a laptop + decent audio interface.