Hey all,
So as we age we lose high frequency hearing, men lose it faster than woman etc. Does anybody bother with ear testing? Years ago I would put up test tones on the good monitors with some music buddies and we would play the Who Can Hear The Highest game. Most amusing. One of the guys who is a first call guy for mixing film and TV music remarkably well could only hear up to 11 or 12k. And yet his high hats and other hi frequencies were well balanced in his mixes. But then perhaps that says something about my hearing loss!
Ears are useful tools so is it helpful to know our deficiencies?
Cheers
Eric
Ear testing?
Ear testing?
- ManFromGlass
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Re: Ear testing?
I'm booked in for a hearing test when I get back from my hols later in August - I can't say that I'm looking forward to the results since I know that my hearing is going down hill.
When I went to ask about the test (it actual started with me wanting to get custom IEMs made) it turned out that the receptionist was quite deaf which resulted in me having to raise my voice - "IS THIS THE RIGHT PLACE FOR A HEARING TEST?"
When I went to ask about the test (it actual started with me wanting to get custom IEMs made) it turned out that the receptionist was quite deaf which resulted in me having to raise my voice - "IS THIS THE RIGHT PLACE FOR A HEARING TEST?"
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Re: Ear testing?
A hearing test every now and again is a useful and interesting thing to do Eric.
A few years ago a test confirmed my suspicion that I had al loss in one ear, further tests revealed a small tumour in my brain. It's tiny and friendly as far as tumours go, but I now visit the NHS twice yearly for an MRI to check progress.
Quite apart from the fact that I'm now aware and monitored, it is an amazing help to have a regular 'profile' of my hearing acuity courtesy of the audiologists.
Go do it fella....
Kindest
Loopy
A few years ago a test confirmed my suspicion that I had al loss in one ear, further tests revealed a small tumour in my brain. It's tiny and friendly as far as tumours go, but I now visit the NHS twice yearly for an MRI to check progress.
Quite apart from the fact that I'm now aware and monitored, it is an amazing help to have a regular 'profile' of my hearing acuity courtesy of the audiologists.
Go do it fella....
Kindest
Loopy
Re: Ear testing?
Well, I think unless you have a really serious loss of hearing it doesn't necessarily affect you in terms of your ability to produce and mix. Most of the really great mixers currently working are in their 40's and 50's so it stands to reason that they must have some level of hearing loss. But I think the brain compensates for these things as they gradually change. Some mixing and mastering engineers have a reputation for being all but deaf and when you look at how loud some people have monitored for decades on end it stands to reason that some probably are. It's worth testing I guess but not if it's going to make you panic that everything you do is compromised.
J
J
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- Jack Ruston
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Re: Ear testing?
Standard high-street and NHS hearing tests will only show pretty severe deficiencies. They are designed only to evaluate the ability to hear and understand speech, and generally only go up to 8kHz at best.
Most damage hearing is to the outer hair cells in the organ of Corti, and these are the cells that shape the basilar membrane to improve our hearing acuity below about 50dB SPL. Once these are damaged, we lose our ability to hear quieter sounds -- but can still hear louder sounds okay.
Sadly, these outer cells also help in fine pitch analysis, so once damaged we also lose the ability to discern slightly different pitches.
It is true that our hearing ability natural degrades with age -- albeit to different degrees in different people -- but it's such a slow process that we also learn to compensate to a surprising degree. Moreover, people like us generally work with references, so are constantly comparing work in progress with references, which tends to dial-out consistent hearing losses anyway.
I reviewed a special engineer's hearing test CD years a go at the bottom of THIS PAGE which is actually surprisingly helpful if used at regular intervals of 3-6 months, say -- provided you maintain consistent equipment and settings, of course.
I believe it is also available as a free on-line test at the moment here:
http://www.digital-recordings.com/hearing-test/www-ht-pro/ht...
H
Most damage hearing is to the outer hair cells in the organ of Corti, and these are the cells that shape the basilar membrane to improve our hearing acuity below about 50dB SPL. Once these are damaged, we lose our ability to hear quieter sounds -- but can still hear louder sounds okay.
Sadly, these outer cells also help in fine pitch analysis, so once damaged we also lose the ability to discern slightly different pitches.
It is true that our hearing ability natural degrades with age -- albeit to different degrees in different people -- but it's such a slow process that we also learn to compensate to a surprising degree. Moreover, people like us generally work with references, so are constantly comparing work in progress with references, which tends to dial-out consistent hearing losses anyway.
I reviewed a special engineer's hearing test CD years a go at the bottom of THIS PAGE which is actually surprisingly helpful if used at regular intervals of 3-6 months, say -- provided you maintain consistent equipment and settings, of course.
I believe it is also available as a free on-line test at the moment here:
http://www.digital-recordings.com/hearing-test/www-ht-pro/ht...
H
- Hugh Robjohns
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Re: Ear testing?
Hugh Robjohns wrote:Standard high-street and NHS hearing tests will only show pretty severe deficiencies. They are designed only to evaluate the ability to hear and understand speech, and generally only go up to 8kHz at best.
Absolutely, the standard audiologist will only take you up to 8kHz, but as for only being able to show pretty severe deficiencies...... or only being designed to evaluate the ability to interpret speach - simply not my experience of the way these tests are used Hugh. A pity you are so ready to write them off, as I explained, my experience of the tests and audiologists has been very helpful and in my case they have been a useful diagnostic tool.
They are incidentally also able to define differences between conductive or physiological loss in the ear and loss associated with nerve damage (my issue). In addition, certain profiles of hearing loss may be interpreted to indicate particular problems.
As Jack pointed out, I have been amazed at the brains capacity to compensate for hearing loss, and also the part that one's experience with sound plays, but it has certainly been very useful to see the loss defined on a plot and in this way understand exactly where my problems lie. Control and understanding, rather than panic.
I can only say that this knowledge has been very helpful for me, and may be for others.
Loopy
Re: Ear testing?
Urthlupe wrote:... as for only being able to show pretty severe deficiencies...... or only being designed to evaluate the ability to interpret speach - simply not my experience of the way these tests are used Hugh. A pity you are so ready to write them off, as I explained, my experience of the tests and audiologists has been very helpful and in my case they have been a useful diagnostic tool.
I'm not writing off audiologists at all, they provide an important service, and the various acoustic and bone-conductive tests they can do can isolate particular types of hearing problem as you've highlighted. But in the context of someone with decent hearing, and no apparent earing issues, the standard tests aren't likely to show normal age-related degeneration until it becomes pretty obvious to someone who is reasonably aware of what they should be hearing. ... Which seems to be what happened in your situation.
It is a fact that the standard audiology tests only test at octave intervals, and with pretty crude amplitude discrimination. Moderate hearing loss is defined as a threshold shift of 40-50dB! Hopefully a critical listener might have noticed a problem long bore that situation arises! In an industry where we measure equipment to fractions of a decibel and third octave analysis is considered basic, standard audiology Is not that critical!
Essentially Im saying that I dont think there is much point in the OP bothering with routine standard NHS-style hearing tests, which is what he seemed to be asking about. If routine testing feels necessary for peace of mind, then I'd suggest instead that a more expansive (frequency wise) comparative test can be performed easily at home with a decent set of headphones any time you feel the need. And, of course, if that test indicates anything that is a cause for concern that an audiologist is the person to see.
H
- Hugh Robjohns
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Re: Ear testing?
And just to add to the debate standard hearing tests test the threshold of hearing at various (course) frequencies. I've asked several audiologists now if the results of our ears frequency response at threshold of hearing translates to higher listening levels. None of them have been able to answer this question. Very few of us mix at the threshold of hearing after all!
Bob
Bob
- Bob Bickerton
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Re: Ear testing?
They test for hearing thresholds because that's a good indicator of outer hair cell damage, one of the most common causes of hearing loss. Prolonged exposure to loud sounds tends to damage the outer hair cells (as do certain diseases and medications including some antibiotics). Once these cells are damaged the ability to hear sounds below about 50dB SPL at mid frequencies, and around 65dB SPL at HF becomes compromised. So working at typical levels (say 80dB SPL plus) isn't much of a problem...
But, as I said earlier, the ability to discriminate pitch is also severely degraded, so separating instruments in a mix can become harder. Unfortunately, the octave pitch testing doesn't reveal anything useful about pitch discrimination.
And then there's the common side effect of tinnitus when the inner hair cells start random firing, which the brain interprets as whines, whistles and hisses.... Which isn't helpful, but at least you'll know if you're suffering from that.
H
But, as I said earlier, the ability to discriminate pitch is also severely degraded, so separating instruments in a mix can become harder. Unfortunately, the octave pitch testing doesn't reveal anything useful about pitch discrimination.
And then there's the common side effect of tinnitus when the inner hair cells start random firing, which the brain interprets as whines, whistles and hisses.... Which isn't helpful, but at least you'll know if you're suffering from that.
H
- Hugh Robjohns
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Re: Ear testing?
There are some simple videos on youtube to test hearing range. DO a little search on there and a few should come up.
https://newloops.com - Massive discounts on Audio Samples and Synth Presets!
Re: Ear testing?
I suffer from tinnitus and some hearing loss and it hasn't effected my mixing skills. I think the brain compensates, as Jack has said, even if it is faux.
Re: Ear testing?
I suffer a bit from tiny-watsit, but never notice it when actively doing anything musical. In bed (trying to get to sleep) is a different matter 
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