What features should I look for in a preamp?

[siog]

Following some excellent advice from SOS members, I have decided that I don't need to spend big bucks on a preamp for my rack. It's better for me to spend money elsewhere in the studio. However, I still need to buy a preamp!

The features are confusing me. I'm looking for a flat sound with little or no colour - just boost.

There's tube or solid-state. There's with and without A/D conversion (is this the same as ADAT?). There's with and without compression and other extras.

I'm only going to spend less than 1,000 euro (probably less as I want to invest in some more microphones). Any advice for me in the lower price range?

Thanks to all who replied to my last topic - very helpful!

[Ben Asaro]

If what you are looking for is 'straight wire with gain', perhaps something to like a Grace or TRUE Systems?

[chris...]

Following some excellent advice from SOS members

Hmmm. As I recall, the advice was you may as well stick with the preamps you've got.

Your RME Fireface UCX is good!

I'm not sure what starting another thread that ignores the discussion in the previous thread will accomplish...

[siog]

Missing my point Chris, I'm not stupid, thank you.

"There's tube or solid-state. There's with and without A/D conversion (is this the same as ADAT?). There's with and without compression and other extras."

I do NOT want to use the preamps in my interface - easy. Maybe better to actually READ the post before posting a supercilious comment?

[Urthlupe]

Yup Siog, I'm also a little confused following your last post.

You already have two very good quality, clean mic preamps in the RME ( and only record max two sources simultaneously). In order to improve significantly on these you would have to spend a lot of cash, more than your budget I'd suggest. Can't therefore see why you feel you need to buy more clean mic preamps unless you're needing more than two simultaneous inputs?

To answer your post above - you seem to be confusing standalone mic preamps with channelstrips. The channelstrips (like for instance the AMS Neve 8801) simply mimic a desk channel of course. This means that along with the mic preamp they generally provide EQ and dynamics as you would find on a traditional console sometimes with various other options, for instance sidechain access for the onboard filters, alternate processing configurations (eg dynamics switchable pre or post EQ), colouration options (eg 'Silk' settings on the RND Portico2) or insert facilities. You could of course buy seperate EQ and dynamic modules (as in the 500 series units) and assemble your own outboard signal chain.

Some outboard channelstrips or mic preamps (like the Focusrite 428 or Audient ASP) also offer onboard digital conversion and can then output the signal in digital format - and yes ADAT is one, as are SPDIF and AESEBU. If you wish to attach these to your RME then you of course need to pay attention to your digital clocking arrangements.

Rather than simply purchase more mic preamps (to add to the two you already have), you may wish to consider purchasing a channelstrip. This would certainly give you new options depending on the nature of the device you choose. However in order to fully utilise it you would either have to commit to EQ and dynamic decisions on capture or hook it up to i/o on your interface so that previously recorded material can be routed through the unit at mixdown (and potentially recorded back in to the project so that the device can be used more than once and your final mix can be rendered directly within your software).

If it is that you simply need more mic preamps for more than two simultaneous inputs, then maybe you could look at something like the Audient or Focusrite units I mentioned earlier attached to your RME via ADAT.

Hope that helps.

Loopy

[zenguitar]

And to be fair I can't see anywhere where Chris accused you of being stupid. His point is that...

Your RME Fireface UCX is good!

RME are highly regarded on these fora and for good reason. Not only do they provide excellent drivers for their AIs, but their pre's are top notch too. You need to spend a great deal more money to get a marginal improvement.

Now, if you really don't want to use the pre's in your RME, that's fine. No one has a problem with that. But you specifically stated this in your post...

I'm looking for a flat sound with little or no colour - just boost.

And that is EXACTLY what you already have with your RME.

It is precisely because you already have an excellent pre-amp that meets your stated requirements that you are being challenged. In other words, it's not enough to state...

I do NOT want to use the preamps in my interface - easy.

You need to explain why you don't want to use them, in what way they don't meet your needs. Because at present you are the one who appears supercilious.

Andy

[Urthlupe]

To answer your post above - you seem to be confusing standalone mic preamps with channelstrips.

...and to be fair to you this is easy to do - manufacturers are constantly blurring the line in an attempt to provide a flexible attractive product.

Loopy

[Mixedup]

I'm not always a huge fan of interface preamps, as various useful features (eg. polarity ('phase') inversion, phantom power switching, filters) often lack physical controls. I don't know if that's a factor for the OP for me, but it is on my RME Fireface 800. If that's the issue there are a gazillion choices in that budget. If you're adding mics and plan on getting a passive ribbon you might look at AEA and True Systems for pres with lots of gain, or at Triton or Cloud for their pre-preamps, for want of a better phrase. *On sound alone*, you're going to have to spend a fair bit for a *clean* sounding preamp that is noticeably better than the RME and it's going to be a solid state one unless you really throw money at it, particularly if you plan on not using the RME converters. As I said in the other thread, I'd be thinking less of the need for cleaner preamps and more about adding useful tonal options via a 'character' preamp (check out Chandler, Sonic Farm, Looptrotter and Warm Audio, for example, or, pricier Thermionic Culture HG15, Tree Audio Branch or Manley Core) or more flexible channel strip such as the Lindell stuff I mentioned.

[Urthlupe]

.... the only product within budget of those recommended above is from Warm Audio as far as I'm aware.... (500 series require purchase of a chassis of course putting them out of budget) ???

Maybe I'm a bit out of touch with prices and products.

Loopy

[Urthlupe]

Apologies Mixedup - I had a quick jeepers and the Triton and True systems are in budget - but surely £500 is a lot for a couple of plastic switches..........?

Must say I'm impressed to see the AEA at around £850 now however.... mmmmmmm

Loopy

[ConcertinaChap]

Following some excellent advice from SOS members, I have decided that I don't need to spend big bucks on a preamp for my rack. It's better for me to spend money elsewhere in the studio. However, I still need to buy a preamp!

Hi,

I think there's some confusion in the advice being offered because neither in this thread nor the previous have you actually stated how many sources you want to record at once. So, how many sources (mics, DI etc) do you think you will want to record at the same time?

CC

[Hugh Robjohns]

Missing my point Chris, I'm not stupid, thank you.

I must admit I'm struggling to comprehend your requirements too. The interface preamps you have deliver exactly the characteristics you say you want... So perhaps it would help if you explain in what ways your current preamps are unsuitable.

"There's tube or solid-state. There's with and without A/D conversion (is this the same as ADAT?). There's with and without compression and other extras."

Tube and solid-state can both be clean, but cheap tube tends to be deliberately coloured and is usually noisier than SS. ADAT is a digital interface format. A/D is analogue to digital conversion, and the digital output could be ADAT, AES3, USB etc..

The compression and eq facilities on some channel strips can be useful if you need/want to process on the way in, but in general I don't recommend that approach for novices.

. Maybe better to actually READ the post before posting a supercilious comment?

And maybe it would be better to accept advice in the manner in which it is offered if you expect to receive any more...

[chris...]

I think there's some confusion in the advice being offered because neither in this thread nor the previous have you actually stated how many sources you want to record at once.

Unless I misunderstood, this was in the prev thread:

"now and then I record two mics at the same time but 80-90% of the time, it's just one."

The Fireface UCX has two, which would seem sufficient.

[mjfe2]

Following some excellent advice from SOS members

Hmmm. As I recall, the advice was you may as well stick with the preamps you've got.

Your RME Fireface UCX is good!

I'm not sure what starting another thread that ignores the discussion in the previous thread will accomplish...

It seems some people find it difficult to accept the notion that wire-with-gain preamps all sound pretty good these days!

And I've noticed some people in this thread say things like 'you have to spend considerably more to notice an audible improvement on the Fireface UCX'. Personally I think this is misleading as it implies there is an audible improvement to be made! Unless you can reliably identify the more expensive preamps in SOS's recent blind test, I strongly recommend you spend your money on better mics or a better sounding room.

[ConcertinaChap]

Unless I misunderstood, this was in the prev thread:
.
"now and then I record two mics at the same time but 80-90% of the time, it's just one."
.
The Fireface UCX has two, which would seem sufficient.

Looks like I missed that, in which case I completely agree. Siog, save your money and put it on room treatment and mics. And, having spent the money, don't be upset or surprised if it doesn't all sound wonderful immediately. In that circumstance it's very tempting to blame your gear (I've been there) but you can't buy experience, you can only acquire it the hard way.

CC

[siog]

Grateful to the members who genuinely tried to give me good advice but why on earth do others feel that they have to comment if they're only going to tell me how 'experienced' they are?

Posting a topic here should not be a test of how much I do or do not know. If I don't know something, I'm very much aware that I don't know it and I don't need some self-appointed "Recording Studio Police" to give me 5 minutes of their time reminding me that I do not know something which according to them, I should know.

If I didn't need advice, I certainly wouldn't start a new thread. Can you not just butt out and leave threads like this to members who have no need to tell the world that they are so weighed down with knowledge that other members have to kneel in order to be granted some of their precious time?

I simply asked for advice - if that has to come with a lecture, leave it out please. Once again, thanks to those few who gave me advice from the ground, not from a podium.

[zenguitar]

If I didn't need advice, I certainly wouldn't start a new thread. Can you not just butt out and leave threads like this to members who have no need to tell the world that they are so weighed down with knowledge that other members have to kneel in order to be granted some of their precious time?

OK, lets be perfectly clear siog. It is not your role to moderate in this forum and tell people to 'butt out'. That roll falls to myself as a moderator and Hugh Robjohns who is an admin.

You will also notice that Hugh and myself have made the same point independently. You already have a pre amp that does exactly what you have specified but you do not want to use. That is fine, no one has a problem with that. But to help you further you need to tell us what it is the problem you have with the RME that makes it unsuitable.

It is a pointless exercise suggesting alternatives until that is established because those alternatives will have the same feature set as your RME.

Now, as a Moderator here I strongly suggest that you take some time to digest the replies you have had so far. And instead of assuming that people are treating you like an idiot you might see that they are trying to get some information from you in order to help you.

Andy

[ConcertinaChap]

Grateful to the members who genuinely tried to give me good advice but why on earth do others feel that they have to comment if they're only going to tell me how 'experienced' they are?

Because we've been there. Goodness knows I'm no paragon of knowledge now but there was a time when I thought I knew a lot more than I do now and you're showing the same signs.

Cheerio. Hope you make it OK.

CC

[Urthlupe]

...And I've noticed some people in this thread say things like 'you have to spend considerably more to notice an audible improvement on the Fireface UCX'. Personally I think this is misleading as it implies there is an audible improvement to be made! Unless you can reliably identify the more expensive preamps in SOS's recent blind test...

Aaaahh, the new mantra.....



Loopy

[Mixedup]

Apologies Mixedup - I had a quick jeepers and the Triton and True systems are in budget - but surely £500 is a lot for a couple of plastic switches..........?

Must say I'm impressed to see the AEA at around £850 now however.... mmmmmmm

Loopy

Yes, prices are better these days. 1000 Euros (the quoted budget) can buy you quite a lot these days. The Lindell Channel X (all three modules inside their own three-slot rack) can be had for £679 including VAT. That's rather more versatile and hands-on than an AI preamp.

Not sure you're looking at the things from True Systems (eg P-Solo Ribbon) and Triton (Fethead) I had in mind? The idea of the Fethead and Cloudlifter is a moderate amount of clean gain to help your usual preamps cope with old ribbons that need more than your regular preamp can easily supply. It's cheaper (nowhere near the £500 you've stated!) than buying an AEA TRP, for example, if you already have decent preamps that offer less gain. They're not needed usually, but as the OP is looking for more mics, they're worth knowing about.

[siog]

I have no wish to moderate your forum but I certainly can decide who I will listen to.

I will listen to genuine, helpful members and I do not have to listen to conceited preachers. Does moderating mean forcing me to listen to crap?

[Hugh Robjohns]

Is it really necessary to be this rude to people who are genuinely trying to help? You might not appreciate their suggestions, but that's no excuse to be a prat. Seems you have much more to learn than the difference between ADAT and A/D.

Now, how about answering the question you've been asked three times already, so that we can focus the answers better?

[siog]

So . . . name-calling by an editor is okay? Great.

There are other fora.

[twotoedsloth]

Well, if you want a clean uncoloured preamp, maybe you might consider the DAV BG 1.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec03/a ... icsbg1.htm

[Bob Bickerton]

So . . . name-calling by an editor is okay? Great.

There are other fora.

One thing that makes these fora so good is the quality of advice given, which is exactly what you have received.

What you need to know is that people respond to a poster's request not just to answer that particular poster's question, but to serve the broader number of people who read posts, to build up a reliable repository of sensible conversation on matters technical. The efficacy of the answers would be compromised if the broader issues are not addressed. Thus the responses you have received.

And yes, the editor is allowed to indulge in name-calling, I think it should be encouraged!

Bob