Chords in progression that aren't in key

[bggypsy]

Is there method to chords in a progression that aren't in the key of the piece? Or is it just a matter of chords that "work" through experimentation and experience on the part of the writer?

For example, a piece I'm looking at here is in the key of G Major and has the progression G, Em, Am7, D, Bm, Cmaj7, Cm7, G, Em, Am, D7

I don't understand the C to Cm...it sounds right, it just doesn't make sense to me.

Any sites where this kind of thing is explained?

[agent funk]

I think going IV to I via iv minor is quite common.

If you study a bit of jazz you will learn a lot about this kind of thing. There are rules you can learn (still learning in my case) but it is all about moving from one chord to the other smoothly so there are no big jumps - the listener should be able to almost hear what chord is coming. Of course rules were made to be broken!

In your example the minor chord helps the movement back to the I chord (G) - not really a key change. In other songs however there can often be more than 1 key.

Sure some of the learned folk on this site will be able to help you a bit more!

[infiniteloop]

This is not an exact science. If it were, then all song chord sequences/progressions would be very similar. If your song is in the key of 'C' there's no rule that says you have to go from 'C' to 'F' to 'G' (I-IV-V) no matter how logical that may seem. Just as you don't have to make your 'C' a 7th before you progress to 'F'...just go with what sounds appropriate to the feeling/vibe of the song.

[Rabid47]

If you'd like a masterclass in logical (and illogical!) chord progressions, I can highly recommend anything by Gil Evans. Pure genius!

[Adji]

I love experimenting with out of key chords and notes and have found myself that for some reason the Maj to Min nearly always works great.

The reason in particular that this C Maj to C Min works in the key of G is becuase when you flatten the third you get Eb (or D# to be more theoreticaly correct) which, if you cant work it out, belongs to the E Harmonic Minor scale, and since E Minor is relative of G Major, it works.

We also have to take into account the minor 7th too which is Bb. Why does this work, well upon experimenting you will coome to realise that Bb is a 'blue' note in the key of E Minor (menaing beloning to the E Blues Scale).
This might seem quite difficult to get your head around at first, but the Major to Minor movement nearly always works on the fourth chord of the Major Scale. Of course it depends in what context you use it as to whether it sounds goof or not, but theoretically, its is not incorrect.

[Mipple]

I actually think that C->Cm->G comes much more from a counterpoint or voice-leading approach. If you take the original C triad (C, E, G) going to a G triad (G, B, D) then the smoothest voice-leading is to have the C move down a semitone to B, the E move down a tone to D and the G remain fixed.

Now the biggest movement here is the tone between E and D so you could introduce an Eb as a passing note to smooth it out - this gives you your Cm triad between the C and G.

[Michael B]

Every time, we say goodbye, I die a little.........how strange the change.....from major to minor....!!!!

As mentioned, it isn't an exact science, the chords of any given key are the basic chords in that key to given some form of structure to allow us to describe the harmony. Consider those chords as turning off points to other keys (modulate), just as passing chords to sprinkle some extra piquancy over the music.

ALthough I never got round to reading all of it - it looks good onthe bookshelf - 'Harmony' by Walter Piston - I just dig that name dude LOL

[Adji]

haha yeah its a cool name, im looking to get that book. Ive read through his Orchestration book a few times, some really useful information in there but sometimes its a little hard to read as i beleive it was aimed at his phd students?

[Slowbo]

Dominic Pedler has a weighty analysis of all the Beatles songs (800 pages). They used every trick in the book. Common examples of the 'Minor plagal cadence' can be found in:
'In my life' (Beatles), 'Don't look back in Anger' (Oasis - bridge) and my favourite, 'Sleeping with the lights on' (Busted)

Clever buggers seemingly went further and ditched the the 'priming' 4th chord (major) and went straight to the minor in songs such as 'Nowhere man' .... Isn't he a bit like you an me.

[Wurlitzer]

I actually think that C->Cm->G comes much more from a counterpoint or voice-leading approach. If you take the original C triad (C, E, G) going to a G triad (G, B, D) then the smoothest voice-leading is to have the C move down a semitone to B, the E move down a tone to D and the G remain fixed.

Now the biggest movement here is the tone between E and D so you could introduce an Eb as a passing note to smooth it out - this gives you your Cm triad between the C and G.

There's a lot in that, and a lot of chromatic chords come about via these kinds of processes.

Yet another way of looking at it is through the phenomenon of "cross-modal borrowing". This is a bit like modulation, except instead of changing the KEY to a different keynote, the composer keeps the same keynote but briefly explores a different MODE upon that note.

In this case, the Cm chord is simply chord IV of G Minor. Same key, different mode. Because the minor mode is so familiar to us, the chord works very smoothly and seamlessly in and out of the major.

This was a favourite technique of some 19th century Romantic composers, and has often been adopted by popular composers looking to get a touch of sadness or pathos into an otherwise major-key song.

[Pabs]

I actually think that C->Cm->G comes much more from a counterpoint or voice-leading approach. If you take the original C triad (C, E, G) going to a G triad (G, B, D) then the smoothest voice-leading is to have the C move down a semitone to B, the E move down a tone to D and the G remain fixed.

Now the biggest movement here is the tone between E and D so you could introduce an Eb as a passing note to smooth it out - this gives you your Cm triad between the C and G.

There's a lot in that, and a lot of chromatic chords come about via these kinds of processes.

Yet another way of looking at it is through the phenomenon of "cross-modal borrowing". This is a bit like modulation, except instead of changing the KEY to a different keynote, the composer keeps the same keynote but briefly explores a different MODE upon that note.

In this case, the Cm chord is simply chord IV of G Minor. Same key, different mode. Because the minor mode is so familiar to us, the chord works very smoothly and seamlessly in and out of the major.

This was a favourite technique of some 19th century Romantic composers, and has often been adopted by popular composers looking to get a touch of sadness or pathos into an otherwise major-key song.

There is some interesting info on similar ideas here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_Axis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_system

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartok

[void_pointer]

There's a splendid YouTube clip of Leonard Bernstein lecturing on Mozart's Gm Symphony.

He explains how Mozart uses all manner of chromatic progressions whilst underpinned by simple tonic / dominant forms that allow seemingly impossible modulations.

Highly recommended.

[Daniel Davis]

I love experimenting with out of key chords and notes and have found myself that for some reason the Maj to Min nearly always works great.

The reason in particular that this C Maj to C Min works in the key of G is becuase when you flatten the third you get Eb (or D# to be more theoreticaly correct) which, if you cant work it out, belongs to the E Harmonic Minor scale, and since E Minor is relative of G Major, it works.

We also have to take into account the minor 7th too which is Bb. Why does this work, well upon experimenting you will coome to realise that Bb is a 'blue' note in the key of E Minor (menaing beloning to the E Blues Scale).
This might seem quite difficult to get your head around at first, but the Major to Minor movement nearly always works on the fourth chord of the Major Scale. Of course it depends in what context you use it as to whether it sounds goof or not, but theoretically, its is not incorrect.

Aaaaargh!.
It would only be D# if it part of a BMajor chord as the dominant to E minor signifying a modulation. D# would be the leading note, which we would expect to rise to E.
As it is in context it's part of a chromatic move from E down to D, and it's part of a C minor chord (which isn't a chord within E minor) so it's definitely Eb not a D#. see replies on part leading.
Stop confusing the poor guy, its just a plain cminor chord in passing.

Also later posters - calling one chord modal borrowing is pushing it a little especially when it's so obviously a passing chromaticism.