Mackie HDR2496 or Otari Radar II 24? what to go for?

[EdRedfern]

Hi folks.

OK. as computer based systems are driving me a bit mad and I need a system with accessible, tactile editing, I'm in the process of a major decision this week.

I've been offered two different machine setups.

1: 2 x mackie HDR24/96 systems with mackie remote 48. these are in mint condition and very light usage.
2: Otari Radar II 24 with analogue I/O and TDIF with extras, this has the session remote and meterbridge, spare drives, etc.

My question is this.

Which system to go for. I have experience of both machines from working on tour and in different studios.

My own thoughts:
Mackie: having 2 HDR's is an advantage either for spares if one fails or keeping one in the studio and the other flight cased ready. one unit is AIO config, the other ADAT optical (opt8). the remote 48 is a tactile system I've used and it gives access where it matters most.

Otari: a more heavy grade system that's still supported by IZ, having spoken with them last night to ask certain questions about the systems in terms of hardware issues, support, sourcing parts, etc. the radar has a slightly more sophisticated but sexier remote. uses SCSI hard drives 68 pin which I can still source, comfortable interface for use.

If anyone can give me their experience with either of the above machines, please let me know. It's time for me to weigh up my options because I need to get this studio comfortable as possible without the major headaches I've been having lately trying to tailor a setup to my needs.

cheers.

ed

[OneWorld]

I used to have the Mackie HDR2496 and it was top quality, but when I found out that it was based on an ancient Intel 389 motherboard that were still available, but cost somethig like £400!!! I got shut of it

I woult do considerable research on availability and cost of spares. I was once offered a Mackie D8B digital console for a few hundred pounds, but the same applied, I found that it was based on an ancient technology that I would think would cost a fortune to maintain if it went wrong, and apparently they did.

[Exalted Wombat]

I used to have the Mackie HDR2496 and it was top quality, but when I found out that it was based on an ancient Intel 389 motherboard that were still available, but cost somethig like £400!!! I got shut of it

I woult do considerable research on availability and cost of spares. I was once offered a Mackie D8B digital console for a few hundred pounds, but the same applied, I found that it was based on an ancient technology that I would think would cost a fortune to maintain if it went wrong, and apparently they did.

Had it been based on a custom motherboard, replacement would doubtless have been even more expensive, if possible at all!

Strange logic, anyway. You got rid of a piece of equipment you liked using because of what MIGHT happen? What are you doing, recording military-grade music Use it until it breaks, THEN decide how to move forward.

But, I agree. "Top quality" sound is easily and cheaply achievable these days. Everything's basically a computer. There's no point in buying into antique hardware.

[The Red Bladder]

The oldest Radar you can go for would be the Radar-24, as it should have the combi-drive, so you can use DVD-Rs to get stuff off and it had Ethernet connection. Radar II was built by iZ and badged by Otari up to about 1998 and usually did not have any DVD-R drives and only had the DVD-RAM drives. There are Radar-24s on ebay all the time. I have two Radar-24s and they have worked flawlessly for the past 12+ years. If you get one, don't bother with the meter bridge.

Mackie stuff is nowhere nearly as well made, as clean sounding, or as well thought out as iZ-Tech's stuff, so I just wouldn't bother.

But if it was my decision, I'd get something modern. If you have a desk, then try Cymatic which can work as a standalone recorder with a decent USB-2 disk. At £525, it should be a no-brainer!

[Mike Stranks]

Not wishing to draw attention to Ed's disabilities too much, but bear in mind that he's blind when commenting on his post. (And that's not a reflection on what's been posted thus far.)

I thank you...

Mike

[EdRedfern]

cheers so far.

ok here's my reasoning behind the two machines.

I have no intention of employing a protools, logic Pro X or anything like that based PC or mac because of software accessibility with screen readers. I've previously been a protools tdm guy and it worked out for 14 years but recently rebuilding a tdm system, just didn't work out well for me. developers no longer supporting plugins, etc issues with screen reader interfacing, etc. I've also been working with an alesis hd24 but, though reasonably reliable, editing is a real nightmare. everything's on the front panel and time stamps are a real headache, this is why I've more comfort between the radar systems and mackie hdr24/96. I'm just trying to make the decision as to what to do.

there are 3 systems actually I'm checking out, the third is a radar 24 but here's the snag I'm facing.

the radar 24 in question is missing a few bits, mainly the OS restore media, etc and is running radar 3.37. having spent time over the phone with IZ themselves trying to get some reasonable answers, I was rather horrified about pricing of OS and software upgrades for a RADAR 24, etc. I'm just a little concerned about taking on a machine that needs some tweaking. the Radar II 24 I've been offered has been used only as a backup, so rare use and has a lot of what's needed including all the original kit, manuals (not that I need them lol), restore media, etc. ok I realise it's old hat technology but for my requirements both in the studio and on site, interfacing with the tools I use is important, bearing in mind my studio's analogue in concept.

If I had my way and won the lottery I'd go PT 12HD if AVID would have me back as a customer after they decided to CHUCK ME. no grudge intended, I'd go for the thunderbolt IO with the outboard I'd need, flight cased, decent accessible console like an SSL matrix or something like that and away I go, but as it's this situation, I have to make the best of what I have available. I'm envious of a lot of studio owners lol, walking in to do a job for someone and walking in to find the sexiest hardware on the market.

anyway, it's more a question of trying to justify this.

thanks mike for your comment, as I was typing this I heard your comment . much appreciated.

ed

[OneWorld]

I used to have the Mackie HDR2496 and it was top quality, but when I found out that it was based on an ancient Intel 389 motherboard that were still available, but cost somethig like £400!!! I got shut of it

I woult do considerable research on availability and cost of spares. I was once offered a Mackie D8B digital console for a few hundred pounds, but the same applied, I found that it was based on an ancient technology that I would think would cost a fortune to maintain if it went wrong, and apparently they did.

Had it been based on a custom motherboard, replacement would doubtless have been even more expensive, if possible at all!

Strange logic, anyway. You got rid of a piece of equipment you liked using because of what MIGHT happen? What are you doing, recording military-grade music Use it until it breaks, THEN decide how to move forward.

But, I agree. "Top quality" sound is easily and cheaply achievable these days. Everything's basically a computer. There's no point in buying into antique hardware.

It's called progress, and it's not about what might happen but what will happen, and as sure as the sun rises in the East, these things always go just when you don't need them to.

Is it safe to say you will buy all my old junk off me then?

recording military music - and your point is?

[OneWorld]

But if it was my decision, I'd get something modern. If you have a desk, then try Cymatic which can work as a standalone recorder with a decent USB-2 disk. At £525, it should be a no-brainer!

+1 I think that's what I would go with as well, and a mixing desk would be needed for the Mackie and Radar anyway?

[EdRedfern]

I'm sorry to sound a bit funny about this, but I've asked for a constructive bit of support here to help with a decision between a couple of systems, not be taken as a joke, etc.

I use a soundcraft ghost 24 as my production desk and do have a long background in recording and production work.

I'm sorry if this comes out the wrong way to some but this is how I'm going to say it.

If I were to place a blindfold on you, ask you to work in a studio, work with your favourite computer without a screen reader or an assistant with you to tell you what's on screen, what's on the displays of your outboard gear, etc. how would you manage?

I spent 14 years developing my craft, 14 years in a rather archaic setup that I'm sure Noah would have been proud of. When you actually realise just what it's like to have to adapt a studio to a tactile or screen reader sensitive environment, adapt cabling with tactile markings, rely on a speaking iphone to read labels or identify cable colours, etc to you, that's just what it's really like.

to put it in a more modern fashion, protools 10 upwards is voiceover friendly within OS X, but to be able to work within that environment means relying on a "Surface" to edit plugins and take control. you can't spend 3/4 hour first thing shooting across an environment holding 4 shortcut keys with an earpiece on saying "Voiceover ready", CH1 Arm enabled" etc by the time you've armed a full 32 channel environment there's 3/4 hour gone, then have to navigate back to clock to hear time measures.

to work with protools blind, you need a surface that interacts not only with the main windows but also takes control of plugins from a tactile environment. that means serious money. Good luck. lottery winners step this way lol.

now, with me, I have the background in accessible studio design, knowing exactly what works, what doesn't, how to adapt an environment, etc. in most cases with the exception of AVID ProTools HD, the rest of the setup is mostly older hardware. that's what I rely on.

So, when I asked on here for some supportive feedback, it would have been nice to have had some good feedback on where to go, now I've listened to a couple of the messages and taken them on board, however, the rest seems to be taking the joke a bit and I'm sorry to appear rather direct but I do not have time to make risky decisions without some backing, either educative or experience based from fellow professionals or serious users who work with this hardware daily.

if I thought I could happily take a computer and some standard interfaces to a studio job, I would but that isn't happening until apple get a few things right, avid improve accessibility of protools HD further and someone develops a proper surface that doesn't cost £80,000.

sorry to all those reading if any offense has been taken. just listening to certain replies that ruin a good thread and weaken the case for what I'm trying to accomplish do take the strain a bit.

cheers.

ed

[James Perrett]

Radar is a professional product and iZ are simply pricing their parts at the level they need to be able to continue supporting the system. If I was in your situation I would spend a fair bit more on a system in the knowledge that it will be supported. I don't know if JoeCo make a suitable product in their range but they would be the other company to look at.

[EdRedfern]

Hi James,

cheers for that, I'd already looked into JoeCo last year. as much as it'd be nice to use something like that, it'd be more of a headache. it's not an editable system, more a live machine and that's not my workflow. my work is multi-tracking and editing but at the moment all this technology stuff just makes things worse.

spending time with apple over fine tuning logic pro x to have full voiceover support is like banging my head against a brick wall sometimes. it's taken them years to get "this far" lol. although in fairness it's actually rather reasonable for the most part, although the mix windows have no accessibility so that's a real downside.

at one point I was looking into a motu 24i/o but those little darlings are about as difficult to find in good nick as rocking horse manure lol. even then it'd need a mac pro to run it. though it astounds me how a 24i/o with a firewire port can only be used with their PCI 428 card. stunned but hey lol. even thought about 2 echo audiofire 12's but they don't exist now, echo have dropped it like a brick in the thames.

so at the moment, my argument still stems between the 2 HDR2496's with the remote 48 and an otari radar II 24 with extras. what to do.

I really appreciate your advice though and thanks for your time.

ed

[Mixedup]

Hi Ed. Of those options, I have limited direct experience. For long term support, though, RADAR strikes me as a better option. I've had many great Mackie products but lots of problems that required new parts or replacement. On older hard to find gear that's going to become a problem for you. Have you also looked at the Tascam X48? I think they still do a mark 2 version... and Tascam have been good in supporting old (tape) machines in my experience.

[The Red Bladder]

Ah, I see that you are blind - you didn't tell us that at first!

OK, I've worked with the blind on many occasions, as they had a large talking-book centre near where we lived and a friend of mine worked there for two years. It was mostly staffed by the blind and severely visually impaired.

In today's audio world, the blind have a new and very severe disadvantage. In the past, all audio was on tape of one sort or another and all desks had knobs that you could touch and feel. All that has gone! In the past we were all 'blind' and we had to use our ears. Now all the information is visual. For example, we align vocals simply by looking at the wave forms on screen and shifting them.

Radar would make an ideal system for a blind person, as it uses dedicated buttons for most things, but it too has a menu that unfortunately cannot be ported to a 'speak' programme.

To be honest, the real solution is for you to go down the DAW route, but via Reaper, as you can create your own macros and short-cuts in Reaper and put them on a dedicated button. Every single command or combination of commands can be placed on a letter. If you got your head around a TDM system (and well done you!) then and possibly with a bit of outside help, customising Reaper to your specific needs should be the best way forward.

In an ideal world, you would get the new Radar-Studio, which combines a regular Radar unit with any PC-based DAW within one system and you can flip between the two systems seamlessly. But they cost $5,000 plus VAT and import duty!

I feel that trying to get an old system that cannot even export the audio could be an expensive and frustrating dead-end.

[EdRedfern]

Hi Red Bladder,

I know for fact I don't need to export data from the machine to any other workstation for mastering. all mastering work is done analogue via the console and outboard to CD / digital media. it's how I prefer it.

I don't even want to think of implementing windows based operating systems because of the cost of a 3rd party screen reader like JAWS for windows being ridiculously overpriced. no thanks.

I'm considering a tascam X48, so if anyone has one of the earlier models they'd consider selling, please let me know.

I am more or less close to my final decisions after a bit of soul searching and realistic arguments. I know that the radar is reasonably blind friendly as have worked with one before on a job. yes of course if I had the £15,000 for a radar studio then of course I would. but if I had the resources, I'd stick to a mac pro, Avid thunderbolt IO and a series of AVID 192's etc then either an avid S6 or an assl AWS948 desk. at least in that surrounding, I'd be covered. until then, it's the old hardware to get the money in.

ed

[RRuskin]

Go with the RADAR 24. It is still supported and there are enough of them out there. They can be updated to use SSD drives if SCSI make you uncomfortable. You still also find a variety of digital in/outs for easy transfer to any DAW you care to use. Neither TASCAM nor Mackie can help you with their respective units.

[resistorman]

If only your advice wasn't 7 years too late