Small mixer with 4 pre-fade aux sends... ??

[Raphbass]

A jazz club I'm involved in needs a mixer with:

Decent internal reverbs (not Mackie please unless they've changed their reverbs since my ProFX16),

4 pre-fade auxes,

Preferably rack width so no more than about 16 channels..ish, e.g. could be 16 mic inputs or 10 mics and a couple of stereos plus returns,

Don't need subgroups.

Budget not much beyond £500.

If 4 sends are too much to ask for at that price, tell me straight... I can take it (sob!).

PS Allen & Heath Mixwizard 16:2 is beyond the budget but otherwise perfect and the reverbs are really nice. More auxes usually means more channels, but I wondered if anyone knows of a smallish and cheaper mixer as described above but with 4 auxes?

At the club we currently use a Behringer 2222FX, reverbs are just about tolerable but general quality is iffy as you might imagine (!), and I'm about to lend them the afore-mentioned Mackie ProFX16 which is good except the reverbs sound like playing a transistor radio down a drainpipe, not unsimilar to the BBC radiophonic workshop's best efforts on Dr Who in the 70s and way worse than the Behringer. So we'll have to hook up an external reverb every gig, just extra hassle when there's limited setup time. ...and both only have two pre-fade auxes.

[Mike Stranks]

If it has to be new then I think you'll struggle to find something within that budget.

OTOH if you're willing to go second-hand then you should find quite a few within budget... there's something of an exodus from analogue at present. The Behringer X32 in it's various forms and, to a lesser extent other similar digital desks, are meaning a lot of people with decent analogue desks are upgrading.

Off the top of my head I can only think of the MixWiz having the facilities that fit the bill. Good solid desk and still able to be repaired... The Yamaha MG24 shouldn't be overlooked, but it's too big for a rack...

HTH

[Raphbass]

Thanks Mike! I think what I'll probably do is see if they'll buy my Mixwizard, sell the Mackie elsewhere, and with the total proceeds plus whatever top-up is needed, get the new Mixwizard myself, or a presonus or whatever.

Not sure what the Mackie ProFRX16 will sell for though, even if it is in near-mint condition.

[Sam Spoons]

Give the Mackie DL1608 a listen and see if you can live with the reverbs. I find them not great but useable with some tweaking (and with 6 auxs you have room for your external reverb). In every other way it's a fantastic desk and sounds very good indeed and Thomann have them for only £543. Otherwise it's save up for an X32 Rack

[DC-Choppah]

Soundcraft Signature 16

Lexicon internal reverb
4 busses
16 channels

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Sig16

[Sam Spoons]

That looks just the ticket but bear in mind one of the auxs will be taken up by the fx sends.

[benniferj]

Secondhand Yamaha 01v96 go for around £600

Has decent RevX Reverbs and Delays. 4 Prefade aux sends. 12 mic inputs and a few extra lines. Rack width and rack ears available. Also has comps and gates on every channel.

Rock solid reliability... no crashes in around 5 years of me owning mine from new.

[Mike Stranks]

Soundcraft Signature 16

Lexicon internal reverb
4 busses
16 channels

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Sig16

'Fraid not... I considered that model, but it won't let you have four pre-fades plus FX send. And, of course, not rack-mountable...

[Mike Stranks]

... if we're considering digital - or semi-digital - then the little Presonus might be just in budget as second-user item.

Only 12 mic inputs, but all the rest meets your requirements...

Mine was rock-solid, but they do need a very good check-over before buying second-hand. Also they're not too far removed from the analogue experience for those who are still analogue-only people...

... and now that the grey-matter is starting to spark... Peavey FX series.... Some will raise eyebrows/turn up noses but I got one for an install as a specific request. Worked well and everyone was pleased. 4 pre-fade auxes, two FX sends to onboard FX and some fancy stuff available through the FX engines.

[Bob Bickerton]

I've been keeping an eye on the Soundcraft Signature range too and it would appear all five Auxes on the 22MK have a pre/post option button.

Might be worth checking out the manual.

Looks like a nice unit and if I didn't already have the Mixwizard 16:2 I'd be pretty keen on that one.

Bob

[Mike Stranks]

I've been keeping an eye on the Soundcraft Signature range too and it would appear all five Auxes on the 22MK have a pre/post option button.

Might be worth checking out the manual.

Looks like a nice unit and if I didn't already have the Mixwizard 16:2 I'd be pretty keen on that one.

Bob

What a good job I'm now retired... as the straight '22' looks very interesting... no manuals online, but it does indeed look as if you can have 4 pre-fades plus FX. And at £749 it's outside budget, but the venue might be persuaded on what a good investment it would be!

[Raphbass]

The Peavey looks good though I'd have to be certain the reverbs didn't sound like farting into a galvanised steel bucket the way the Mackie does.

The Soundcraft is definitely a contender.

I'm trying to persuade them to buy my Mixwizard 16:2 - at the moment they're not too keen cos it's bulky, but it's within the budget.

... and if the Mackie ProFX16 gets sold too I'll add a bit to the total and get myself the new version of the Mizwizard. Or maybe a Presonus or a 01v96. Which will mean I'll be asking a load of new questions

[Bob Bickerton]

Given a choice, I'd probably go for the Soundcraft 22MK over the Mixwizard for one very simple reason. Mixwizard is a great desk but the effects returns are not on a fader, and can't easily be patched that way, which I find cramps my creative juices when mixing.

Bob

[Mike Stranks]

The Peavey looks good though I'd have to be certain the reverbs didn't sound like farting into a galvanised steel bucket the way the Mackie does.

Review HERE

[Raphbass]

Hi Mike, thanks for the link. It mentions the reverbs but not really what they're like.

The happy ending is I've given up on a "small" mixer with 4 pre-fade auxes, so I've sold my Mixwizard 16:2DX to the club for £500 including flightcase, and just ordered myself the new WZ4 version. Effects to all four pre-fade auxes and individual phantoms per channel... "nice"! Have to get a case for it as well, so I suppose I've kinda paid £400ish total for the luxury.

Still trying to sell the Mackie ProFX16, but no bites. If it weren't for the reverbs I'd love it!

Thanks everyone for the comments.

[Mike Stranks]

Result!

[Raphbass]

Hi Bob (or anyone with a MizWizard desk...) - you mentioned you have a MixWizard, and I wonder if you could possibly help me: the new WZ4 has channel aux 5 sends going straight to effects, i.e. NOT through the aux 5 master. I've always had the master at 0dB thinking it was, well, an aux master. I've just discovered by pure chance it makes no difference so presumably is only an aux master when aux 5 is used as an external send...

As the mixer is now in the store cupboard at the club I can't check it myself, so If you have an older version, do you remember off the top of your head, or could you check whether the channel aux 5 sends go via the master, or straight to the effects?

I wasn't at the club last night and got frantic phonecalls cos they couldn't get reverb into a monitor, so I'm doing instructions, a checklist, colour-coded routing diagrams, the lot, but I'd hate to misinform them and say aux 5 goes straight to ST1 if on the old version it actually goes through the aux 5 master.

[Hugh Robjohns]

...I wonder if you could possibly help me: the new WZ4 has channel aux 5 sends going straight to effects, i.e. NOT through the aux 5 master. I've always had the master at 0dB thinking it was, well, an aux master. I've just discovered by pure chance it makes no difference so presumably is only an aux master when aux 5 is used as an external send...

Yep. On page 19 of the manual, in the Aux master section, it states:

Note that the AUX5 and AUX6 master controls do not affect the level sent to the
internal effects processor. They do affect the level available at the rear panel aux
output sockets.

...and if you look at the block schematic on page 24 of the manual it also clearly shows that the Aux 5 and 6 feeds to the internal effects engines are taken BEFORE their respective Aux master controls (which only affect the physical Aux outputs.

http://www.allen-heath.com/media/AP8665_1WZ412_16_user_guide...

As the mixer is now in the store cupboard at the club I can't check it myself, so If you have an older version, do you remember off the top of your head, or could you check whether the channel aux 5 sends go via the master, or straight to the effects?

The Aux 5/6 system is exactly the same in the MW3 (the handbook even has exactly the same words on the same page 19!):

http://www.allen-heath.com/media/WZ3162_BLOCKDIAGRAM.pdf

It's all readily available on A&H's website...

H

[The Korff]

What model of WZ4 is it? Some of them have some zany routing options that let you control the aux master levels with the group (and effect) faders.

Cheers!

Chris

[Raphbass]

Superb - thanks guys!!

PS instruction manual??? Whassat? Does anyone have an instruction manual on how to read instruction manuals?

[Hugh Robjohns]

I'm sure there's something on google about it...

[Raphbass]

I googled it and found a brain refurbishment service.

[The Red Bladder]

Does anyone have an instruction manual on how to read instruction manuals?

That reminds me of a story - (Yes, Uncle Bladder is going to tell you a story!)

When we opened our present studio, I took delivery of our 60-frame mixing desk. It was going to be commissioned in two weeks time, but I couldn't wait and set it up anyway!

I plugged in our various toys, but heard nothing. So I plugged in the pink noise generator, but still nothing. The meters showed signal coming in and the L & R meters showed that I should be hearing something. Still nothing.

So I routed stuff through groups and tried every possibility. No. Nothing. Not a sausage!

After over an hour, I reluctantly phoned up the manufacturer, who put me through to their field service engineer. He talked me though every step, but, no, still not a sound.

He asked me to check the speakers, so I checked the speakers by connecting them to the pink noise generator. Speakers were OK, but the desk still refused to make the slightest sound.

"Well," he said in his Northern accent. "I'm boogered! We've tried everything."

Then he had an idea. "Take a look at the centre section. You see the section at the bottom called 'Control Room Monitors'?"

I told him that I had indeed seen it and I had already pressed anything and everything that I thought might make a difference.

"Right down at the bottom and on the left, there's a button labelled 'MUTE'. Is the light on or off?"

I told him it was on and shone red.

"Well, turn it off!"

I did as instructed and pink noise filled the room and I shouted for joy!

He then turned to more serious matters - "Have you got the manual there?"

I told him that I did indeed have the manual to hand.

"Have you got a pen?" I had a pen.

"Write down on the front cover, the letter R." I did as instructed.

"Now write down next to it the letter T." Once again, I obediently followed instructions.

"Now I want you to write after those two letters, the letters F and M." and this I did.

And thus it was that I learnt the meaning of the letters RTFM - and if you come to our studio and want to see the manual for the desk, those letters are still written on the front cover!

[The Korff]

You're saying you didn't try to cover up the red Mute light with a bit of tape first? Pfft, amateur!

[Bob Bickerton]

Priceless

Bob