New soundcard or mic preamp?

[tc99]

Hello

At the moment i have a M-Audio Firewire 410. i am happy with the recording quality when recording synths in direct to the jack inputs. i am happy with the sound quality of the mic inputs, but they are just too noisy for me, especially as i often play things at a quieter level. I am really after something with a really low signal to noise ratio, or at least noticeably better than the 410. I use a Shure SM58 mic. I had a TC Electronic soundcard for a while, which had much quieter mic input, unfortunately it caused Sonar to crash, and then died itself.

I was thinking the Motu Audio Express could be good. Would i notice an improvement s-n-r wise. I would imagine so, because i know they are a higher rated brand. Any other suggestions, budget is £350. Really i only need 1 mic input, standard jack input, and also 2 stereo seperate outputs, and Midi. The other thing i was considering was buying a separate mic preamp, and then that would go into the standard jack inputs in my 410. I know nothing about mic-preamp, so advice would be appreciated!

[ef37a]

The Coudlifter would seem your easiest answer, got a good review in the mag.

The Fet Head is a similar tool but can be had with phantom power "pass through".

Dave.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I am really after something with a really low signal to noise ratio...

you've got that he wrong way around. You are actually complaining of a low signal to noise ratio now, and you are seeking a high sinal to noise ratio -- in other words you want the signal a lot higher than the noise!

I use a Shure SM58 mic.

I suspect your problem is not really with the interface, but with the mic. The SM58 has a very low sensitivity and is no designed for recording quietly played instruments. It's intended for vocals screamed right into the end of it!

You haven't said what you're trying to record, but I would suggest that buying a small-diaphragm capacitor mic is likely to I've you the sons quality you seek, with zero disruption to you existing set up, and you'll get something very good easily within your budget.

Tell us more of what you're trying to do and we can zero on an appropriate mic short list.

[ef37a]

I am really after something with a really low signal to noise ratio...

i'm afraid you've got that the wrong way around. You are actually complaining of a low signal-to-noise ratio now, and you are seeking a high signal-to-noise ratio -- in other words you want the signal a lot higher than the noise!

I use a Shure SM58 mic.

I suspect your problem is not really with the interface at all, but with the mic choice. The SM58 deliberately has a very low sensitivity and is not designed for recording quietly played acoustic instruments. It's intended for vocals being screamed right into the end of it!

You haven't said what you're trying to record, but I would suggest that buying a small-diaphragm capacitor mic is likely to give you the sound quality you seek, with zero disruption to your existing set up, and you'll get something very good quite easily within your budget.

Tell us more of what you're trying to do and we can zero in on an appropriate mic short list.

Hugh, I tremble to point this out but the SM7b has an even lower sensitivity than the 57/58s and is touted as THE mic for the spoken word!

I have only had one M-A interface, the Fast Track pro and the mic pres on that were pretty poor.
FWIIW I have recorded picked acoustic guitar at about a foot oj a 57 with my KA6. The gain was flat out but gave a very acceptable noise level. In fact the "room" was the noise floor even at 2am.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Hugh, I tremble to point this out but the SM7b has an even lower sensitivity than the 57/58s and is touted as THE mic for the spoken word!

Maybe, but I wouldn't recommend trying to use it for that purpose with a budget interface!

It may well be that the preamps in the OP's interface are noisier than some other interfaces, but that problem can undoubtedly be overcome by providing it with a higher input signal. That's precisely why you suggested the cloudlifter cascade preamp, after all. I agree with that general philosophy, but I think it might be better to use a high output capacitor mic instead because that would bring other benefits which I think the OP might appreciate.

H

[tc99]

thanks both. yes i see what you mean about wanting a high, not low s-n-r.
I am recording various percussion, glass bottles, shakers, etc. sometimes it goes quieter. Also
acoustic instruments such as accordion, guitar, melodica.
I was actually very happy with the TC Electronic Impact Twin mic in combination with the sm58, it is a shame it had other issues and dies on me in the end anyway, it was certainly clean enough for me, obviously i am not expecting complete silence. I'm guessing generally that the more you pay the better the mic input, and that includes a key aspect like SNR. From what i know TC Electronic and Motu are about in the same area quality wise, and have surely got to be better than M-Audio. A shame there is not technical specs on the Motu page for the Audio Express.

i will do some research on Coudlifter and Fet Head, and yes any mic recommendations would be very usefull

[ef37a]

Hugh, I tremble to point this out but the SM7b has an even lower sensitivity than the 57/58s and is touted as THE mic for the spoken word!

Maybe, but I wouldn't recommend trying to use it for that purpose with a budget interface!

It may well be that the preamps in the OP's interface are noisier than some other interfaces, but that problem can undoubtedly be overcome by providing it with a higher input signal. That's precisely why you suggested the cloudlifter cascade preamp, after all. I agree with that general philosophy, but I think it might be better to use a high output capacitor mic instead because that would bring other benefits which I think the OP might appreciate.

H

Gotcha! We are skinning the same cat different ways! I am forever suggesting peeps buy capacitor mics on forums because the default seems to be an SM something and then they run into the OP's problem.

In fact, if starting from scratch my choice would be a small D capacitor with a 20dB pad. That gives you most of the sensitivity/noise advantage of a capacitor but the "pokability" of a dynamic plus it can be used close up in difficult acoustics.

I mentioned that the NI KA6 had clean pre amps but I also understand that they are very good on the Steinberg UR22 and presumably the rest of the "U" range?

Dave.

[Rich Hanson]

If you don't want to spend too much, I've used a Rode M3 on percussion in the past and have been happy with the result. They can be had for around £70.

[Mike Stranks]

Ahem! MARTiAUDiO

[tc99]

these little gain boosters look good, could be the right thing. Fethead or Martiaudio look good, price wise, i guess the Cloudbox is more expensive for the hard steel case, and i don't need that extra protection as i won't be gigging it

[Hugh Robjohns]

Cascade preamps like the MartiAudio, or FEThead, or Cloudlifter (et al) will give you around 20-25dB extra gain before the interface preamp, and that would hopefully reduce a sizeable chunk of the interface preamp noise. And this approach can be a very effective solution...

However, you will still have the inherent restrictions of the SM58, such as a very restricted HF/transient performance (which is not helpful if you're trying to record percussive sounds) and virtually no bass response once you get more than a six to nine inches away from the source you're recording. That might not be significant with percussive instruments, but will be with anything more musical.

In contrast, using your budget to buy something like the BeyerDynamic MC930 (which is near the top of your budget) will give you a really good small-diaphragm capacitor mic with a sensitivity of 30mV/Pa as opposed to the SM58's 1.85mV/Pa. To put that in context for you, it means the output from the MC930 is 24dB louder than the SM58 -- which is the same kind of signal level into your interface preamp as the SM58 paired with a cascade preamp -- so you'd get exactly the same noise improvement, but with the added benefit that the frequency response will be more or less flat and HF response considerably better.

Coming down in budget terms, the Rode NT55 would be about 16dB louder than the SM58, so not quite as much extra gain but still a substantial improvement, and you get both cardioid and omni capsules with that, affording even greater recording flexibility.

Or you could get a matched stereo pair of Oktava MK012s which are 15dB louder than the SM58 -- so still a very significant improvement -- and would allow you to record in stereo with, again, far better quality than the SM58.

And there are many more high-output capacitor mic options within your budget... And that's the route I'd be taking if I was in your situation.

H

[tc99]

thanks a lot Hugh. I think the actual mic is something that i have just put out of my mind, because i was happy enough with the actual sound i was getting in the set up, just not the amount of noise in the signal chain, i always thought it was mostly down to my current mic input on the M-audio, but yes i guess there is a lot more to it than that. I am quite surprised by the difference in the sensitivity of the different mics you have listed. And you mentioning about the lack of bass response on the SM58 is quite relevant to me now, as i just have bought a bass drum . . i guess the other instruments and percussion i was using are quite mid to high range. So i will have to have a think about this, some interesting options. I do think my M-Audio inputs are just very noisy, they are at the bottom end of quality i guess.

[tc99]

thanks also Rich i will add the Rode to my list to research, they are not expensive also