Advice on mixer/software for mac

[phil fridge]

After a lifetime of using analogue tape machines and then hard disc i've decided to buy a mac and go completely digital. I've identified a couple of mixers, Allen and Heath or a Prosonis - 24 input mixers but need to know if i use these with pro logic-which i understand can be purchased as an app for a mac- would either of these mixers be able to control the DAW i.e. the faders etc from the desk.....i cannot handle the idea of using a mouse to do this. If pro logic cant do this is there any software out there which will allow this?

[Mike Stranks]

I can understand why, with your history, you want to continue working with a mixer. Been there myself. But in all honesty do you really need a mixer now?

You state that you want a 24-channel mixer... do you mean that you'll have 24 tracks that you'll want to mix-down to stereo as the final outcome? (I doubt that you'll want to record 24 tracks simultaneously unless you're recording live concerts.)

Using the full capabilities of a DAW (digital audio workstation) really is a quantum-leap forward from what you can/could do in the analogue domain and when you get used to it, actually much easier and consistent.

I'd suggest that you think again... start looking at a quality audio interface with the requisite number of preamps for the number of tracks you'll every want to record simultaneously. And you don't need to use a mouse when it comes to mixing... something like THIS gives the hands-on feel. (NB: that's just an example; there are several variants available.)

Again, I do understand where you're coming from... a few years ago I could never envisage working without a mixer in the studio... now I can't envisage working with one!

[phil fridge]

Hi Mike. thanks for the reply.....i did actually go down the DAW route and bought a new windows pc, a Tascam 8 input audio interface and cubase pro artist software. It was dreadful to work with, constant windows up dates, umpteen sub menus and yes the dreaded mouse. I'm not so concerned about recording with a external mixer but using one in the final mix.I work primarily as a songwriter, and actually the max number of tracks i've ever used is 22 tracks! The multiple tracks available on most software is therefore a luxury which i don't need but the software manufacturers don't think like that. Obviously a mac would get round the windows update nightmare but you don't explain how its not necessary to use a mouse.
I was advised by the studio guy at GAK (Brighton) the Presonis mixer which comes with tracktion software does allow the mixer to take control of the DAW, however i want to explore other options. Is it correct pro logic can be bought as an app for a mac and though it may not be for you are you aware if it is possible for an external mixer to control pro logic?

[Dr Huge Longjohns]

Obviously a mac would get round the windows update nightmare but you don't explain how its not necessary to use a mouse.

Did you look at the link Mike posted in his reply? This is how you get round not using a mouse. They call them control surfaces and come in a variety of flavours. Essentially, they become the physical manifestation of what you see on the screen, complete with faders, pan knobs, transport controls etc etc.

[phil fridge]

I have now ! but they seem somewhat limiting fader wise(got to be able to 'ride' them on a final mix) ....i appreciate people giving their suggestions on what might work for them but really all i wanted to know is there a mixer desk out there which will control a mac / logic pro set up.

[muzines]

I have now ! but they seem somewhat limiting fader wise(got to be able to 'ride' them on a final mix)

Why limiting? An MCU + four expander units gives you 32 channel faders, and you can group them how you want (say, 24 for tracks and 8 for busses) while easily being able to bank them around to easily cope with projects of hundreds of tracks if necessary. Want more? - just buy more 8-channel expander units. As many faders as you need.

really all i wanted to know is there a mixer desk out there which will control a mac / logic pro set up.

There's a pricey SSL one but I don't think that's what you are after... Really, a desk was suited to working with pre-DAW recorders, and kind of conflict with a DAW. If you try to work with a desk, then interfacing that many I/O is a pain, and then you run into wanting to automate on the desk, but that happens in the computer, and the whole system gets a bit messy. But sure, you *can* get a traditional desk and just treat the DAW as a dumb recorder, and ignore a lot of the advantages of working with a DAW (automation, no noise, limitless plugins, flexible routing and so on) and in this case, any old analog desk with audio interfaces capable of handing the I?O you need will work. Some even have transport sections that can send MMC to control the DAW transport (I think the old Soundcraft Ghost had that).

[phil fridge]

I wasn't aware of expander units, so it might be a possibility, but there are digital desks out there e.g. allen and heath , presonis which are perfect if they can control the software. As i mentioned in an earlier post a guy at GAK made the point that a presonis desk could control traction software , i hoped maybe someone had used something similar with a mac and logic pro and could enlighten me . I know i can bypass the whistles and bells of a DAW when recording as the max tracks i would record at the same time is only 2, but want to be able to use the desk on a final mix.
Whats the model description of the SSL i'd like to check that out

[Dr Huge Longjohns]

Perhaps you could tell us your budget?

[phil fridge]

For the desk absolute tops of 2.5 g ....i looked at the Mackie stuff, not really for me, it looks a bit mickey mouse (sorry!) though the price with add ons is probably a couple of grand. Bearing in mind you can get a 24 input digital mixing desk for under two grand it really doesn't seem to justify the cost. I work with a lyricist and have done for a very long time, with a modicum of success,though its a changing world! Our aim has always been to produce quality demos at a sensible cost to ourselves and with the minimum of hassle unfortunately the DAW world seems to have been developed by computer geeks not musicians. Though i admit i don't miss the days of tape degradation so the digital world does have some pluses. All we want to do is mix from a DAW using an external mixer to create cd's and wav files using faders and pots and pans! Bearing in mind we have all sorts of external graphics, compressors, rack effects the DAW itself doesn't have to be that special, the mac/logic tie up being from what i can ascertain being the best way of avoiding the frustrations that windows brought. Unfortunately for us , the only non pc route for us is the Tascam DP 32 and that would be a step or three backwards for us , so we're between the devil and the deep blue sea.

[muzines]

Whats the model description of the SSL i'd like to check that out

http://www2.solidstatelogic.com/studio/aws#&panel1-1

Like I say, a bit out of your budget!

[phil fridge]

Nice Desk......i might pursue it, budgets are one thing , essentials are another!

[Dr Huge Longjohns]

Unfortunately the DAW world seems to have been developed by computer geeks not musicians.

The problem with kind of assertion is that just about every single major recording studio in the world now runs DAW systems. So the notion that DAW recording and in-the-box mixing is, as you imply, somehow inferior to a giant desk and a big spool of tape just doesn't stand up anymore.

Many top mixers now work totally 'in the box' too and have long-abandoned big mixers in favour of a mouse, a couple of control surfaces and/or a single fader.

I'm sure you have very sound (no pun intended) reasons for clinging to the notion of a big hands-on, multi-channel mixer but many, many pros have been down that road and ended up delighted with in-the-box solutions. Don't knock it til you've tried it etc!

[lukeandrewhill]

I have now ! but they seem somewhat limiting fader wise(got to be able to 'ride' them on a final mix) ....i appreciate people giving their suggestions on what might work for them but really all i wanted to know is there a mixer desk out there which will control a mac / logic pro set up.

Just wanted to point out that you can do fader rides/panning/modulating whatever you want etc etc from a control surface really easily - and can fix it after the event if you make a mistake.

L

[CS70]

For the desk absolute tops of 2.5 g ....i looked at the Mackie stuff, not really for me, it looks a bit mickey mouse (sorry!) though the price with add ons is probably a couple of grand.

Not sure what you mean. The difference between a 24 channel mixer and a 24-faders control surface is that the former has pre-amplifier and line inputs and some effects on every channel, plus a couple AUXes and routing.

From what you write, using a DAW, you'll do effects and routing in the DAW, and to pay for 24 preamps or even 12 for not really using them, makes little sense. Basically, with the DAW, the only bits that you use of the mixer are the controls - knobs, faders and mutes: in other words, the control surface part. If, say, you want to reserve a couple channels as AUX buses, you configure them as such in the DAW and off you go.

If you still want a mixer the X32 or the Presonus are good desks that can also act as control surfaces. But you're not going to use 90% of what you pay for (or alternatively, 90% of what you pay for as DAW)

[lukeandrewhill]

And also to answer one of the other original questions, yes, you can get Logic X as an app for the mac. I think it is around £140 now.

L

[resistorman]

I'm going where you are, except that I've been mixing in the box for many years. I'm going with Harrison Mixbus and the Behringer x touch control surface, though I've been using Samplitude for 20 years and will probably still use it for some editing and mastering. Mixbus has a very analog sound natively, which I've been chasing with plugins, and has a straight forward layout, like a mixing desk. It works on Mac, PC, and Linux.

[phil fridge]

Thankyou for your reply and actually awnsering my question in part. The trouble with forums i find is that everyone wants to say, don't do it like that, do it like this as its what suits them.Its interesting as well how many people get defensive over DAWS. There simply not intuitive to me and hence my preference for a proper desk.Anyway I think the Allen and Heath QU 24 will do what i want and that is what i will probably go with.
GENERAL OBSERVATION-My songwriting buddies son is just completing a 2 year course on music production at Guildford Uni and is an absolute wiz with DAWS and macs but what he really wants is a proper desk !so its definitely not a generation thing...i often wonder whether recording will go the way of amplification .....most people now prefer valves for guitar amplification, and having almost being yesterdays technology they have now seen off the transistor and are much preferred to digital modelling amps and what about vinyl? look how thats turned around. As i said before i like the fact you get no degradation with digital recording however its the pc / sub menu / mouse nonsense that really gets me and my ears certainly detect audio differences . As Keith Richards says recording by numbers doesn't really do it for him,and of course he can afford to use 2" analogue tape and spend hours at his craft, but i suspect theres an awful lot of people who'd do it that way too if they didn't have budget constraints.