Phase switch myth- c'mon Audient

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Phase switch myth- c'mon Audient

Post by Tomás Mulcahy »

So according to Audient "When recording with multiple microphones check and correct phase cancellations with the ø switch".

How is a polarity switch going to change phase differences? What's wrong with moving the mics? What about stereo?

In fairness, they also offer a brilliant explanation of variable input impedance (although IMO the effect is a bit over-rated, compared to moving the mic).

I'm picky- not apologising for it :)
Last edited by Tomás Mulcahy on Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Phase switch myth- c'mon Audient

Post by Hugh Robjohns »

Tomás Mulcahy wrote:So according to Audient "When recording with multiple microphones check and correct phase cancellations with the ø switch".

Er... yes, you can!

If the relative phase of two signals is such that the summed signal is partially cancelled at some specific frequency, a polarity inversion of one signal will turn that cancellation into a peak instead. That is certainly a valid 'check' for phase cancellation, and it might also be considered 'a correction' in many circumstances.

They are not suggesting the switch provides the phase alignment you imply would be possible by moving mics...

I'm picky- not apologising for it :)

Me too...

I know what you're trying to point out, and I share your frustration over the continued confusion of the terms phase and polarity, but I fear your own pedantry has bitten you back in this case! ;-)

H
Last edited by Hugh Robjohns on Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Phase switch myth- c'mon Audient

Post by Tomás Mulcahy »

I didn't say you can't do it that way. But it does rather limit your options, and it's neither the only nor the best way to do it. Imagine those instructions being read by a noob. It gets taken out of context because none is provided. Furthermore, I would think that cancellation (180 degrees) is pretty rare- phasing is far more common.

What did you think of the impedance analogy?
Last edited by Tomás Mulcahy on Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:46 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Phase switch myth- c'mon Audient

Post by Luke W »

Glad I'm not the only person who's bothered by the terms "Polarity" and "Phase" seemingly becoming interchangeable. Really annoys me. I probably need better things to worry about :)
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Re: Phase switch myth- c'mon Audient

Post by Tomás Mulcahy »

Luke W wrote:I probably need better things to worry about :)

LOL me too :thumbup:
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Re: Phase switch myth- c'mon Audient

Post by Guest271017 »

Tomás Mulcahy wrote: Imagine those instructions being read by a noob.

When I do, I picture them figuring if the polarity's off, a simple 180 degree turn of the mains plug should sort it. :headbang:
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Re: Phase switch myth- c'mon Audient

Post by ronmac »

mashedmitten wrote: ........ a simple 180 degree turn of the mains plug should sort it. :headbang:


Easily done with a RCA connector...
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Re: Phase switch myth- c'mon Audient

Post by Tomás Mulcahy »

ronmac wrote: Easily done with a RCA connector...

:clap::lol:
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Re: Phase switch myth- c'mon Audient

Post by Hugh Robjohns »

Tomás Mulcahy wrote:It gets taken out of context because none is provided.

Sure... but I don't think we can really blame Audient for not including the substantial essay required to fully explain the subtleties of relative phase and its effects on frequency response, as well as the related subjects of time-alignment and polarity....

Audient took a well-used short cut. Most of us know what they meant, and noobs will figure it out easily enough when they play with the switch.

Furthermore, I would think that cancellation (180 degrees) is pretty rare- phasing is far more common.

True, but irrelevant. A polarity switch won't help much with a time-alignment issue -- which is what you really mean when you talk about 'phasing' -- itself an rather ambiguous and misused term.

So let's ignore the poor use of technical language for a moment; aren't they really just talking about the classic situation of mics above and below the snare drum, which inherently capture signals that are fundamentally of opposite polarities, and the useful role that a polarity switch plays in that situation in obtaining a better combined sound character?

What did you think of the impedance analogy?

I thought it was rather contrived, confusing, and heavily flawed... although the rest of the more conventional explanation of adjustable impedance loading and its effects was pretty good.

H
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Re: Phase switch myth- c'mon Audient

Post by Tomás Mulcahy »

Hugh Robjohns wrote:So let's ignore the poor use of technical language for a moment; aren't they really just talking about the classic situation of mics above and below the snare drum, which inherently capture signals that are fundamentally of opposite polarities, and the useful role that a polarity switch plays in that situation in obtaining a better combined sound character?

Fundamentally? Isn't that an over-simplification? It's two different harmonically complex vibrations. They don't really precisely vibrate in sympathy, do they? And the mic distance is another variable. They're far more complex in terms of phase than simply "opposite". As evidenced by what we find in practice- it's a crapshoot. Sometimes "opposite" sounds good, sometimes no reversal sounds good.
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Re: Phase switch myth- c'mon Audient

Post by Hugh Robjohns »

Your middle name isn't Tim by any chance, isn't? This feels like arguing for the sake of arguing, and I only paid for the short five- minute session which has already run out...

:lol:

H
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Re: Phase switch myth- c'mon Audient

Post by twotoedsloth »

I have an Audient Mico, and it has a variphase controller on one of the mic pres.

I've never used it, but I remember reading it wasn't true phase alignment. Is there a quick summary of what it does available?

If not, it's not the end of the world, I've gotten by this long without variphase.

Thanks,

Peter
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Re: Phase switch myth- c'mon Audient

Post by Hugh Robjohns »

twotoedsloth wrote:I have an Audient Mico, and it has a variphase controller on one of the mic pres.

I've never used it, but I remember reading it wasn't true phase alignment. Is there a quick summary of what it does available?

It's them words again.... :-)

You could try my review in which I gave a description of what this control does and doesn't offer: http://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/audient-mico

The Mico's Variphase control provides a continuous phase-adjustment facility, derived from the use of adjustable all-pass filters, and I think that could be said to offer 'true phase alignment' since it allows the phase of one signal to be aligned in phase with another at any given frequency (and its harmonics)...

What it can't do, though is provide true 'time alignment' -- and ironically that's the problem for which this approach is typically advocated!

As I said in the review, it is not uncommon to record some sources with more than one microphone (acoustic guitars, snare drums, and so on), or with a microphone and a DI combination (acoustic and electric guitars, for example).

The fundamental problem in these situations is that the two signals may not be time aligned because the different microphone distances from the source (or mic distance relative to the instant DI) capture the sound at different times The resulting time offsets between the two signal can cause phase cancellations (at specific frequencies related to the timing difference) that colour the sound, often in unflattering ways.

This problem can be fixed in the studio given time and care in placing the mics, or if the material is recorded into a DAW simply by sliding one microphone's track along the time‑line relative to the other.

What Audient offer with the Variphase control is not the ability to time‑align the two channels — there is no built‑in variable time delay facility here — but to adjust the phase-shift of one channel relative to the other. The control affords a 180 degree shift, and by switching in the polarity inversion you can access the 180 to 360 degree range too.

It's an interesting tool which sounds a lot like a manually-controlled phaser or phase shifter pedal — so by adjusting the Variphase control you can effectively decide which frequency components are aligned and emphasised, and which are sacrificed through partial cancellation.

This solution enables the user to compensate to some extent for the dominant phase cancellations caused by incorrect time-alignment that would otherwise colour the sound in an objectionable way, and enhance those musically constructive phase additions instead.

The key difference, though, is that whereas correct time‑alignment would bring all frequencies into phase alignment, the Variphase control only brings some frequencies into phase alignment (you choose which by adjusting the control). So while this phase-shifting tool doesn't replace true time‑alignment, it often renders a sufficiently pleasing result that genuine accurate time‑alignment becomes unnecessary.

In practice, at least with a DI'd and miked guitar, I found it was possible to get some very pleasing results, with nice musically-enhancing colourations rather than nasty ones.

Hope that helps.

H
Last edited by Hugh Robjohns on Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Phase switch myth- c'mon Audient

Post by twotoedsloth »

Wow, thanks for your comprehensive response. I feel bad making you take the time to educate me.

As I usually use the Mico for stereo recordings - on the main pair - I guess I don't need to incorporate the variphase into my workflow. I wonder why they didn't see fit to put variphase on both channels? It's omission makes stereo recording impossible. I've also never used the HMX distortion, for the same reason, you can only use it on one channel.

That being said, I really like the Mico for it's simultaneous multiple digital outputs, I can run a disaster recovery recording out of the SPDIF output, I use the analog outputs to run into my AI.

Curiously, the Mico also puts phase switches on both of the channels. With the variphase in place the second phase/polarity is not needed, is it?
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Re: Phase switch myth- c'mon Audient

Post by Guest271017 »

There's a VST that analyzes phase issues and intelligently corrects them if desired, IIRC. Can't remember the name to save my life. Can't remember if it handles live input or just recorded. I think it shows multiple wavs on a graph showing time/ waveform issues.
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Re: Phase switch myth- c'mon Audient

Post by Guest271017 »

Maybe this was it, not sure.

http://www.voxengo.com/product/pha979/
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Re: Phase switch myth- c'mon Audient

Post by Hugh Robjohns »

twotoedsloth wrote:Wow, thanks for your comprehensive response. I feel bad making you take the time to educate me.

Just keep renewing your subscription, and then we bth benefit from the arrangement! :lol:

As I usually use the Mico for stereo recordings - on the main pair - I guess I don't need to incorporate the variphase into my workflow.

Correct.

I wonder why they didn't see fit to put variphase on both channels?

Because its only needed on one channel; you adjust one channel's phase with respect to the other. If it was on high channels which would serve as the reference?

It's omission makes stereo recording impossible.

No, I really doesn't. If you use coincident stereo arrays there can be no time offset between channels, so no need for variphase adjustment. And if you use spaced arrays the time offsets are critical to the imaging and there's no point in using variphase!

I've also never used the HMX distortion, for the same reason, you can only use it on one channel.

Yea, that's a fair point about the HMX feature being available only on the one channel... But it's a reasonable compromise given the Mico's typical applications in small project studios.

Curiously, the Mico also puts phase switches on both of the channels. With the variphase in place the second phase/polarity is not needed, is it?

More confusion with that word 'phase'. The 'phase switch' is actually a polarity inversion switch: everything gets turned upside down. The all-pass filter in the variphase circuit is not as 'clean' as a simple polarity inversion.
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Re: Phase switch myth- c'mon Audient

Post by Tomás Mulcahy »

Hugh Robjohns wrote:Your middle name isn't Tim by any chance, isn't? This feels like arguing for the sake of arguing, and I only paid for the short five- minute session which has already run out...

:lol:

H

:lol: I think maybe you've over-dosed on Tim? ;) I think you may have misunderstood what I was trying to say, because I wasn't exactly clear. My main beef is that actual cancelation (i.e. an actual polarity inversion) is quite rare in a multi-mic setup (assuming nothing is electrically or mechanically broken). Phase issues- both constructive and destructive, are far more common. The problem is, as you say, the terms are used interchangeably so the understanding is a bit mixed up. Using your ears generally solves the problem (or realises that it isn't a problem) better IME.

Anyway, got some good jokes out of it at least :clap:
Last edited by Tomás Mulcahy on Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Phase switch myth- c'mon Audient

Post by Hugh Robjohns »

Tomás Mulcahy wrote:My main beef is that actual cancelation (i.e. an actual polarity inversion) is quite rare in a multi-mic setup (assuming nothing is electrically or mechanically broken). Phase issues- both constructive and destructive, are far more common.

Yes, I'd agree completely.

I think the prevalence of the polarity switch stems from the days before there was a consensus on connector wiring. For those too young to have suffered it, prior to the late 1970s some mics and equipment were wired pin-2 hot and others pin-3 hot in a seemingly random way between different manufacturers, so polarity inversions were commonplace and required frequent fixing in the signal path.

As you say, in multi-mic rigs a complete polarity inversion is highly unlikely, and any phase issues are generally the result of timing disparities due to mic positioning. So activating a polarity inversion switch will only change the phase relationships between different mics rather than 'fix' them per se -- although sometimes that 'change' is sufficient to obtain a usable sound...

I think I use the polarity switch more for aligning the channels gains for stereo sources than anything else. The only time I routinely reach for a polarity switch in multi-miked rigs is when I have top and bottom snare drum mics, since the initial transient wavefronts from the heads send a rarefaction to the top mic and a compression to the bottom, and without a polarity inversion for the bottom mic the combined sound is usually (but not always) rather thin. I also use polarity switches for swapping the sound stage when using MS arrays...

H
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Re: Phase switch myth- c'mon Audient

Post by Tomás Mulcahy »

Hugh Robjohns wrote: I think I use the polarity switch more for aligning the channels gains for stereo sources than anything else.

I must admit I'm a bit lost here :oops: . Is that to get left and right equal, or to get several stereo arrays equal?
Hugh Robjohns wrote:The only time I routinely reach for a polarity switch in multi-miked rigs is when I have top and bottom snare drum mics, since the initial transient wavefronts from the heads send a rarefaction to the top mic and a compression to the bottom, and without a polarity inversion for the bottom mic the combined sound is usually (but not always) rather thin.

Now for a noob that is a nice pithy explanation that would fit on a brochure ;) assuming they can use a dictionary :lol: But seriously, nicely put.

Hugh Robjohns wrote:I also use polarity switches for swapping the sound stage when using MS arrays...

I'm lazy I just use an MS plugin :)
Last edited by Tomás Mulcahy on Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Phase switch myth- c'mon Audient

Post by Luke W »

Tomás Mulcahy wrote:
Hugh Robjohns wrote: I think I use the polarity switch more for aligning the channels gains for stereo sources than anything else.

I must admit I'm a bit lost here :oops: . Is that to get left and right equal, or to get several stereo arrays equal?

I'm assuming to get the two sides equal. Monitor both channels in a stereo pair, reverse the polarity of one channel, adjust the gain until theres the maximum amount of cancellation, and then revert it back to normal.
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Re: Phase switch myth- c'mon Audient

Post by Guest271017 »

Luke W wrote:
Tomás Mulcahy wrote:
Hugh Robjohns wrote: I think I use the polarity switch more for aligning the channels gains for stereo sources than anything else.

I must admit I'm a bit lost here :oops: . Is that to get left and right equal, or to get several stereo arrays equal?

I'm assuming to get the two sides equal. Monitor both channels in a stereo pair, reverse the polarity of one channel, adjust the gain until theres the maximum amount of cancellation, and then revert it back to normal.

Is this to do with the stereo pan law?
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Re: Phase switch myth- c'mon Audient

Post by Drew Stephenson »

mashedmitten wrote:
Luke W wrote:
Tomás Mulcahy wrote:
Hugh Robjohns wrote: I think I use the polarity switch more for aligning the channels gains for stereo sources than anything else.

I must admit I'm a bit lost here :oops: . Is that to get left and right equal, or to get several stereo arrays equal?

I'm assuming to get the two sides equal. Monitor both channels in a stereo pair, reverse the polarity of one channel, adjust the gain until theres the maximum amount of cancellation, and then revert it back to normal.

Is this to do with the stereo pan law?

Nope, pan law only applies when you're moving things across the stereo field.
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Re: Phase switch myth- c'mon Audient

Post by Guest271017 »

blinddrew wrote:
mashedmitten wrote:
Is this to do with the stereo pan law?

Nope, pan law only applies when you're moving things across the stereo field.

Ah, I see the difference, now. :geek:
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Re: Phase switch myth- c'mon Audient

Post by Hugh Robjohns »

Tomás Mulcahy wrote:I must admit I'm a bit lost here :oops: . Is that to get left and right equal, or to get several stereo arrays equal?

Arrange for a dual mono signal, flip polarity of one channel, adjust gain of one channel for deepest null, restore polarity , job done: one accurately aligned stereo channel.

Now for a noob that is a nice pithy explanation that would fit on a brochure ;) assuming they can use a dictionary :lol: But seriously, nicely put.

:-) Thank you!

H
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