A good cheap solution for complete live voice effects

[Barabba]

Hi mates, in the previous topic I asked about a particula hardware, that on the paper did the job.. but wanted to be sure before buy it.

I realized is better ask someone of you a more open question, that involves any brand/technology and you can here may share your experience about.

I would add a microphone for duos on my system and I need a box/rack for processing the voice with:
expander/gate (may be optional), compressor (required, at least 20:1), an adeguate equalizer (not 3 bands only), de esser, chorus+reverb.
Can you please suggest anything cheap that not sounds creepy and has a handly interface? (not programmable only by USB/PC, I need maybe to correct live the settings).
The input can be for microphone direct (phantom not needed) or it can be as well a classic send/return effect to connect to mixer.
Thank you a lot!

[Drew Stephenson]

Might be worth looking at the TC Helicon products?

[Mike Stranks]

What problem(s) are you trying to solve?

Why do you think you need all these effects?

What kit:
* mics
* mixer
* speakers
* anything else
do you already have?

Maybe the answer is not to add effects, but something more fundamental - and possible simple.

Tell us what kit you have and what problems you're experiencing and we can then offer more specific help and advice... which might not involve any new kit at all!

[Sam Spoons]

You need a digital mixer, there's nothing else I'm aware of that will do everything you ask. Digitech used to do a quad fx processor but it was discontinued a good while ago. Stand alone fx units are usually designed to do just one effect at a time, and for the cost of a decent one you can buy a digital mixer.

For example, my XR12 has gate, comp, HPF and 4 band parametric EQ on every channel, four fx busses which can be configured as inserts or send fx, 6 aux busses plus L/R stereo inserts, with full dynamics processing and 6-band parametric or 31-band graphic EQ routable to two TRS aux and stereo main XLR physical outputs and all for under 250 quid.

Incidentally isn't 20:1 compression pretty high for live vocals? Unless you are barely tickling the threshold that sounds like feedback city to me?

edit :Mike askes the relevant questions...........

edit 2 :- and Drew may have something with the TC boxes, as a performer I'm a huge fan (though, TBF, with my sound tech hat on I'm often less than impressed), they don't give you the programability that a 'proper' rack fx will but they do sound very good indeed. Have a look at the Mic Mechanic for starters.......

[Barabba]

Thank you all friends for helping me!

Yes I have already all the staff, mixer, micro, all. Consider to use this equimpmet as send/return FX.

Well, XR12.. I understand it can worth considering cost and quantity of functions, I've read the manual, yes it does support all I need but some questions about.
How many effects can I use at same time? It has 4 pure stereo processors, 8 in mono.. I think I need a Gate at first stage, de esser, EQ, compressor, chorus and reverb, maybe another EQ in the end. How many processors I've loaded already?

And a question about usability, how fast can I manage effects with touch screen? can I map the effects (especially EQ) easly on the app?

How much compression rate has XR12? Can I eventually set two compressors/limiter in chain?

Well with my actual Lexicon MPX500 I have only 10:1 and I can't sing "soft voice" songs and "loud voice" ones without turning the volume +-30%.. I would not have that task to do more, annoying.

Thank you a lot for help!

[zenguitar]

Well with my actual Lexicon MPX500 I have only 10:1 and I can't sing "soft voice" songs and "loud voice" ones without turning the volume +-30%.. I would not have that task to do more, annoying.

Thank you a lot for help!

This isn't a problem to solve with a compressor. It is all about mic technique and singing technique. As a singer you need to learn how to do your 'soft voice' loud and your 'loud voice' quiet. There are benefits to be gained from using a vocal compressor live, but it is very rare to use more than 1 or 2 dB for that.

Save your money and invest in some lessons with a good singing teacher.

Andy

[Sam Spoons]

+1 regarding mic technique, I've never used more than 3 or 4 to one compression live then only just to tame the loud bits. Mostly I don't use any compression at all live. I've never used a de-esser live either.

The Berry digital mixers have gate, comp, HPF and 4 band parametric eq on every channel so those don't use up any fx slots. you also have four fx slots which can be assigned to channel or bus inserts (potentially x 8, usually extra eq or dynamic and modulation fx) or used as send fx (typically reverb and delay). Patch switching would be the difficult bit with whatever you end up doing but the Behringer forum would be the place to go to ask how best to implement that. https://forum.musictri.be/forumdisplay.php?117-X-AIR

HTH

[Barabba]

Thank you,
I saw some tutorials on Youtube, it's a bit more clear, anyway I can't figure out yet the maximim ratio of the compressor, somebody knows how much is it? Thanks.

About using the effects in mono, I suppose I can somehow use the same chain for the two microphones.. one micro assigned to the Left channel, the other to the right, and in the end mix the result. But can I configure for example the delay of the reverb different for each channel, inside the same effect?
Or maybe there are dedicated mono effects already?
Thank you

[Sam Spoons]

If you are still talking about the XR series digital mixers then you'd be better asking the question on the X Air forum but I'll do my best to answer.

Max ratio on the channel compressor, just slide the fader up to the top for 100:1. Bear in mind that the 'vintage' style compressor in the fx rack may not have the full range of controls, the 'Fair Compressor (presumably a model of the Fairchild) has no ratio control 'cos the real thing doesn't have one.

Having had a brief look at the X-Air app on my iPad I can't see a way of using the fx in 'dual mono' so you'll be stuck with only four separate fx though you could have two mics sharing the same effect. edit :- There are several dual fx patches available, but strangely, no dual delay. No dual reverb either but that makes sense as reverbs use up a huge amount of CPU resources and are usually configured as send effects (which BTW are almost always mono in) There are also several multi fx patches with, say chorus and reverb in one patch

Do you understand the difference between insert fx and send fx? You would usually use reverb and delay as send fx which are, by definition, available globally.

[Mike Stranks]

If you're considering using a compression ratio of more than 4:1 for live work then you've got far greater problems than what kit to use.

I know this will sound harsh, but from everything you've written so far it's becoming increasingly clear that you're trying to solve performance and technique issues with technical solutions.

Take Zenguitar's advice... try and work towards being able to perform without using ANY processing at all.

Like Sam, when I was working in live-sound it was often/usually the case that the only effect I was using was reverb/delay. Everything else was handled by performer technique and the correct use and positioning of equipment. I'd only roll-out some of the processing you're suggesting as a last resort. It would be a very rare situation indeed where I'd have to employ all of the aspects that you seem to want as a matter of course.

Can you find an experienced sound person to come and see your set-up when you perform and then offer some advice on how you could improve things?

[Hugh Robjohns]

Well with my actual Lexicon MPX500 I have only 10:1 and I can't sing "soft voice" songs and "loud voice" ones without turning the volume +-30%.. I would not have that task to do more, annoying.

Using compressors and limiters in a live situation needs considerable care. It can be done, but it needs a very well set-up PA system with a considerable gain-before-feedback margin.

Firstly, anything with a compression ratio of 10:1 or higher is called limiting, and continual limiting generally sounds pretty horrible and extremely fatiguing for the audience. 4:1 or 5:1 is about as high a ratio as I would countenance in a live situation, and with only 2 or 3dB of gain reduction on extreme peaks... But it would be a pretty rare situation that would call for a compressor in a typical live situation.

Secondly, if you're relying on the compressor/limiter to impose a certain amount of gain reduction when you're belting out your 'loud voice', it will dump that gain reduction in between your vocal lines. This is the same as turning the mic gain up by the corresponding amount and, as a result, your PA system will be much more prone to howl-rounds and more noticeable background noise or spill.

So, if you're expecting to see maybe 10dB of gain reduction on your compressor you'll need to make sure your PA system is stable with 10dB more gain on the mic channel... and that might not be a realistic or practical situation at all!

I share the concern of others in this thread that you're trying to throw studio-style technology at what is, fundamentally, a performance problem. And it's a very different situation using tools like compressors and de-essers in post-production compared with a live performance. So in your list of must-have requirements, the only one I'd consider practical for a typical live-sound gig is the chorus/reverb.

In any case, there really should be no need for a de-esser, and if you can't shape the vocal adequately with a three-band EQ then you either have a very inappropriate mic, or a very inappropriate mic technique.

H

[Barabba]

Thank you for suggestions, I appreciate all your comments, suggestions, and the time you're spending for writing them!

Let me explain a bit:
It's true I'm not a high specialist sound engineer, I'm making my experience reasoning and making experiments when possible,
actually I'm not singing, my collague is and it looks she have to improve her sensibility while she listen herself and how loud she apper on the speakers, she's putting away micro when goes louder, but it looks the micro is a bit tricky and in few centimeters it makes a big differences. singinging at very short distance on its cardiod focus or 5cm away not on focus may be a 10dB of differences. The micro si Shure SM58 (wireless), maybe the capsule needs to be replaced, but actually it sounds nice. Also there is a huge difference from when she sings to when she just speak at micro. Also we're singing in restaurants.. quiet places with soft songs in the beginning, that turning "hot" and active (partecipation of guest, involved with music) in the end.. and I would love she can become indipendent, plug the equipment and be ready to sing after only a initial brief regulation of EQ-general volume. WHen you perform alone, very hard to regulate yourself, I try do all my best to make her indipendent, compressor helps somehow.

Actually the compressor on MPX500 is triggered only over -6dB, leaving dull dynamic with real voice below, this is how you suggested for limiting the peaks only, but it looks not enough. If I set the microphone gain to the softest song, she will clip 100% with the louder, I need to reduce the gain by a 20% at least. So I guessed a "limiter" can do the job instead of the hand,

Good that there is reverb+chorus in one effect, I can use one for micro, then together a de esser (very light, just because in quiet restaurant a "noisy s" can be annoying if appear, and as last effect I can maybe apply a limiter..

Yes insert is something I'm not interested, it afftects directly the dry source, I think no reasons for it.

So in th end, can I do this?

Mic1>first stage (eq/compressor/HPF/etc)>first processor (reverb+chorus, stereo I suppose)>out1
Mic2>first stage (eq/compressor/HPF/etc)>second processor (reverb+chorus, stereo I suppose)>out2

out1 on ch L>third processor de esser ch L>forth processor limiter ch L>mix with R>output
out2 on ch R>third processor de esser ch R>forth processor limiter ch R>mix with L>output
?
Thank you again all of you!

[Sam Spoons]

If she's clipping the mic preamp a compressor or limiter won't help. It is a wireless mic? Is it clipping the transmitter (they usually have a sensitivity/gain control somewhere)? It it clipping in the receiver (not sure if that's possible as long as the TX is not clipping), or is it clipping the preamp in the mixer? More info on your rig would help with a diagnosis but it sounds like you are not getting the gain structure right.

One last question, have you a wired mic (ideally an SM58 to test but be aware that it is probably not the ideal mic for a female voice singing quieter/more melodic songs) to try? If all is well with that then your wireless system may be the culprit.

BTW you would not normally have the reverb and delay as insert effects but fed from a post-fade aux output and returned to the mixer on either a stereo return or a pair of spare channels. The signal path you detail above suggests that all your fx are used as inserts, and certain effects must be used as inserts (de-esser, limiting, compression (usually, I'm ignoring parallel compression for clarity) modulation fx like chorus/phasing, and eq)

Where in the World are you? It sounds like you would benefit from some one to one help from an experienced sound guy.

[Barabba]

Here my answers
Micro is not clipping, well it happens only a couple of times the led became orange in the receiver, I don't know if it means clipping or coming close to it, but it is really rare (big crazy parties like new year eve), so it's not matter. Clip/over I see on MPX500, and I trim the input lower to avoid it. The compression 10:1 is not enough to avoid it, maybe because the compressor is triggered too near the clip (-6dB, the clip is at 0dB).. I can eventually low it but as you said I'm a bit aftraid to ruin the quality.

Yes you are right, I don't want to use the insert, because I want gate, compressor and first eq first, but de esser should come before effects.
Eventually is possible to use one processor as insert? I can de esser it first, but as I told the dinamic can be really wide (soft or loud singing) it can be better to filter the voice after compressor.
What about the chance to move a channel to left or right only? And what about later to mix them both into stereo? Is it possible on XR12?

I don't have a good wired microphone, but I can ask around for a try. Anyway I think my SM58 works ok.
Unluckly Im in St.Petersburg (Russia) and better avoid to ask russians how, they don't have particular culture/sensibility here, the expert is for sure in the city but hard to find one, reliable. I'm not again testing till find the better solution )

[Sam Spoons]

The compressor won't solve the clipping issue as the input trim is before the processing in the signal path, even 100:1 would make no difference to the clip light coming on. The manual has this to say about setting up the input trim :-

Input
1. First, bypass all effects. The System parameter, Bypass Mode must be set to pass dry audio.
To do this:
Press System to enter System mode. Turn Edit Knob 1 to display Bypass Mode. Turn Edit Knob 3 to select Dry.
Press System again to exit System mode. Press Bypass.
2. With your highest level program material, start with a very low input level and advance it slowly.
3. When you reach audible distortion, or when the display clip indicators light and stay on, lower the input level until the clip meters come on only on the highest peaks.
The Input Trim control allows the MPX 500 to be driven by an input level in the range of +20dBu to +8dBu. The minimum setting (fully counterclockwise) should be optimal for +4dBu (balanced) inputs. The maximum setting (fully clockwise) should be optimal for -10dBV (unbalanced) inputs.

My inclination would be to say the compressor is making things worse as it is masking the level variations so your singer can't hear when she is overpowering the system and compensate with mic technique.

What mixer are you using? Without knowing it is hard to suggest a better method.

[Barabba]

Thank you for your kind post
Except really particular moments, the micro is not clipping itself. MPX show clip just because I forgot to low down the input, the singer was before singing soft or talking. Those clips aren't related a bad set system, just forgot I added some gain before.

I know what you mean, I would like to guess the peak, then compress at lower level, then eventually add some gain later. Just because MPX 500 let me reach the peak with 10:1 I guessed I need something more powerful.

Anyway, I really like to evaluate this XR12, if he can let me realize the desidered chain of effects I described. Again thank you all for your kind support!

[Sam Spoons]

There should be no need to adjust the input gain/trim during a show, if you are having to there is something wrong with the way your system is set up, the way your singer is using the mic or there is actually a fault with the equipment itself.

How do you connect it up at the moment, what mixer are you using, where do you connect the Lexicon fx, what amps and speakers are you using? Without knowing we can't help....

[Barabba]

Honestly I don't see anything strange on it, it is predictable that the intensity of sound is not the same betrwwen a soft song to a the craziest/rock one at the end of the concert. I think just I setup too high the attack of compressor.. better lower it and gain more at output.

I have a SM58, then a Bheringer VX2496 with only gate, eq, de esser, analog output to MPX500, then line in of soundblaster audiocard where I mix with instrumental track, then UHF radio transmitter to the amplifer.
Nothing too special.

[Barabba]

I would like to upgrade, maybe XR12 is good option, just I would clear if I can make the chain as described, thank you a lot!

[Sam Spoons]

I think the XR12 will do most of what you want, but can't give you a definite answer without the extra info about your complete rig we have asked for.

However four different contributors to this thread have advised you that you are approaching this problem the wrong way and suggesting better ways of dealing with the problems you are having. It's difficult to help you if you feel unable to act on the advice given......

[CS70]

Honestly I don't see anything strange on it, it is predictable that the intensity of sound is not the same betrwwen a soft song to a the craziest/rock one at the end of the concert.

Hei Barabba,

that's what the fellow's been trying to tell you: it is (almost) the same. A vocalist has certainly a dynamic range, but it must be under his/her full control and kept small.

When it sounds like a vocalist is shouting loud, he isn't (and if you look, you'll see that he makes no effort.. if it's a metal band, it probably must act like he's making one): he is using his power voice. Same with soft songs: soft is the delivery, not the volume. There are singing techniques that can be learnt easily (voice "from the belly", "face voice", using the shape of the mouth.. have u seen Mick Jagger? )

My band setlist usually involves delicate ballads and full power rock songs - we like to keep things varied. I never touch the gain knob for the vocal channel during a gig, no compressor, just a bit of reverb. I'm using a 58 as well - because as you say, it sounds pretty good.

Keep in mind that most of the dynamics isn't done by the vocalist, but by the band. The hallmark of a great band is how tight they are and how can deliver dynamics. It's not that difficult actually, for us for example, it's often enough that I stop playing the guitar or play it quietly or muted to create cresecendos, big-bang choruses or changes of intimacy.. *but* I had to work a lot to get the other guitarist to quiet down

So, finance some signing lesson for her and she'll be all the better for that.

[Barabba]

I have described my devices, I repost again:
I have a SM58, then a Bheringer Behringer Ultravoice Digital VX2496 with only gate, eq, de esser, analog output to MPX500, then line in of soundblaster audiocard where I mix with instrumental track, then UHF radio transmitter to the amplifer.

There is no mixer, The Behringer Ultravoice Digital VX2496 is a preamplifer with several analog stages: Gate, tube emulator, Compressor, EQ, De esser. I'm not using its compressor (excluded).
As I said I'm sure the problem I have is related to the compressor settings, I have to lower the input a bit to be sure I won't clip, then reduce the attack limit for example at -10dB (or even lower), then gain output a bit. In this way I can take better advantage from the 10:1 ratio, avoid clips and maybe have same volume. I'll try and let you know.

May somebody please assure me (with some certitude) that I can setup the XR12 chain in this way?
Mic1(ch1)>[insert]first processor (deesser) channel L only>first stage of ch1 (eq/compressor/HPF/etc) (mono or stereo not important)>second processor Chorus+reverb (stereo)>out (stereo)
Mic2(ch2)>[insert] first processor (deesser) channel R only>first stage of ch2 (eq/compressor/HPF/etc) (mono or stereo not important)>third processor Chorus+reverb (stereo)>out (stereo)
(eventually forth processor a limiter or stereo enhancer)

I think chorus+reverb effect create appreciable stereo output from a mono source, isn't it? At least my MPX500 do this. So no reasons to use the second processor (reverb+chorus) with double mono (one channel each microphone) and save one processor for other purposes.

Thank you for reply
Thank you again all of you!

[Sam Spoons]

Sorry, I can find no mention of the Behringer UltraVoice processor in this thread to the other.

AFAIK, on the XR12 you can't put an insert processor in front of the channel processing (though there is a dual de-esser so you'll only need to use up one fx slot for both mics) so the short answer to your questions no.

However, to do what you are trying to do I would use a small mixer (an XR12 would be ideal) and configure it thus :-

mic 1 > input 1 > channel 1 > insert fx 4 = dual de-esser > main outputs
mic 2 > input 2 > channel 2 > insert fx 4 = dual de-esser > main outputs
send fx 1 > reverb > fx return 1 > main outputs
send fx 2 > delay > fx return 2 > main outputs
send fx 3 > stereo chorus > fx return 3 > main outputs
laptop > line inputs 5&6 > main outputs

That uses all four available fx slots and will give the option to add reverb, delay and chorus to the mics as send fx and apply the de-esser to the mics individually. The channel processing gives you gate, HPF, eq (4 band fully configurable) and compressor (in that order) and I think the insert fx come after but can't confirm.

It's probably worth the time to go back and read the advice you have been given across the two threads.

[Bob Bickerton]

This has been largely covered, but having read about your current set-up, you will greatly benefit from using a dedicated live mixer and the XR12 provides comprehensive processing options should you need them.

But my advice is start off simple. You really shouldn’t need more than gentle compression, EQ and some effects on a vocal channel. If you can’t get the sound you need with that, then you need to look at performance technique and arrangements.

Bob