SDC (Cardioid) or Shotguns on Vocal Group

[Bob Bickerton]

A dry run with a rehearsal would be a good idea. Presuming you don’t have 10 vocals mics to hand already, and given its a recurring gig, would it be worth hiring both configurations and the selecting which works best?

Maybe start the rehearsal with older kids (who would be more patient) then, when you’ve concurrently optimised both systems bring in the wee folk to test.

Regarding placement (for the stereo pair) I have them at the one third/two third points at head height and maybe 2 metres in front. Have the speakers in front and to the sides and point the null of the mic to the nearest speaker. Also explore panning around 50%. Yes, you’ll need serious wind isolation - I use Rycote Super-Softies and of course you’ll need to use a high pass filter to remove unwanted lower frequencies. A graphic EQ will be your friend with either approach.

Bob

[Driller]

A dry run with a rehearsal would be a good idea. Presuming you don’t have 10 vocals mics to hand already, and given its a recurring gig, would it be worth hiring both configurations and the selecting which works best?

Maybe start the rehearsal with older kids (who would be more patient) then, when you’ve concurrently optimised both systems bring in the wee folk to test.

Regarding placement (for the stereo pair) I have them at the one third/two third points at head height and maybe 2 metres in front. Have the speakers in front and to the sides and point the null of the mic to the nearest speaker. Also explore panning around 50%. Yes, you’ll need serious wind isolation - I use Rycote Super-Softies and of course you’ll need to use a high pass filter to remove unwanted lower frequencies. A graphic EQ will be your friend with either approach.

Bob

Apologies for the late reply, I've been snowed under with work.

Bob, thanks again for sharing your valuable experience and expertise, all noted and understood!

I've organised a dry run with some of the older kids as suggested and will make a purchase of a couple of K&M choir stands and a pair of Beyerdynamic 950s (supercardioid) or 930s (cardioid).

Strangely, having being playing music and recording for the best part of 30 years I've just discovered the existence of the little node of sensitivity at the back of supercardioid mics. Quite a surprise!

I'm pretty set on these SDCs as they seem to have a great cost/quality ratio and a high sensitivity at 30mV. So the final great philosophical question is do I go for cardioid and benefit from the null at 180° or supercardioid and have more directionality but that sensitive spot in the tail so to speak?

Your lovely MKH8050s are supercardioid of course!

ETA I went for a pair of the cardioids, will do an update when the test is done.

[Bob Bickerton]

I’d be thinking supercardioid rather than cardioid. Knowledge of nulls and where you point them is the key. Neuman km185 and Sennheiser e614 have more controlled (according to published polar patterns) than MC950.

Bob

[Driller]

Thanks for that clarification Bob. I'll cancel the 930 stereo pair and have a look at those others.

ETA dear oh dear what a minefield. I can afford those Neumanns but I just can't morally justify them lol
and those e614s are only €200 each so surely they can't be as good as the MC930s which are twice the price?

Also it says on the shop site that the e614s are very sensitive and yet on the Sennheiser site it says they are only 3mV/PA...

[Driller]

I've decided to stick with the cardioids because:

1) They are clearly indicated as choir mics and
2) The way I see it, with 40 kids in a group, if you point a supercardioid at them, you're only going to pickup a small fraction of the voices whereas a couple of cardioids will pick up more of the group plus there's a better null point at the rear of the mics to get best level before feedback.

This is only kids singing, there are no loud accompanying instruments to isolate the mics from which would be a sure indication for a supercardioid.

What's more the MC930 exists as a stereo pair (which I've ordered) and includes wind shields and a carry case, the superardioid mc950 is only available as singles and no windshields.

Anyway I'll post up an update having played around a bit.

[Bob Bickerton]

Well I understand the MC930s are very good mics, and anyway you've ordered them. The key will be the get those speakers as far in front of the mics as is possible.

Bob

[Driller]

Good shout, I'll work on that, it's a big courtyard so space isn't a factor.

I am considering getting some slim array type speakers though (I think you said thats what you use?) as my EON15s are going to block out the show for some of the audience.

LD systems Maui 28 G2 looks handy.

[Bob Bickerton]

Yes, I really like the mini-line array speakers.

I have a couple of Fohhn systems, LX61/XS10 and LX150/XS30, bought on a whim having read reviews in sound on sound!

Beware, this can be an expensive place to hang around!

Bob

[Drew Stephenson]

Beware, this can be an expensive place to hang around!

it's amazing how much i didn't know i needed until i started reading this site.

[Driller]

An update. Got the gear and set it up with a single MC930 in the garden on a high boom using one JBL EON15.

As General Melchett said-bugger me with a fish fork! What a difference!

Set the JBL up about 2 meters in front of the MC930. The gain achieved before feedback was huge. At one point I could hear some people walking in the street 10 meters away on the other side of the 2M high garden wall chatting through the speaker but couldn't hear them directly with my ears.

Very, very impressed by these microphones and as mentioned before, speaker placement is extremely important.

No wind noise with the dead mammals that came with the matched pair.

Just one question: the event will take place in the school playground which has an asphalt surface. Someone mentioned using tons of gaffa tape to fix the cables down. Any tips with gaffa tape on asphalt?

Next Friday I'll do a dry run in the school yard with some of the children.

[Hugh Robjohns]

You'd be much better off using heavy rubber matting to cover the cables. Gaffa tape won't stick well to asphalt.

[Kwackman]

Just one question: the event will take place in the school playground which has an asphalt surface. Someone mentioned using tons of gaffa tape to fix the cables down. Any tips with gaffa tape on asphalt?.

If it's not a very long run, rubber mats might work?
Places like Tesco and Lidl do fairly cheap large doormat sizes.
Re-useable and much easier for the de-rig!

[Bob Bickerton]

That’s good news, it’ll be interesting to hear how the real thing goes.

Yes, rubber mats are the way to go.

Bob

[Driller]

Thanks for the tips on the mats everyone, I'll grab a whole bunch of them

[Bob Bickerton]

Only downside with rubber mats is that they go walk-about. So a few years back, I got a bunch of them branded and with yellow strips down the long edges. They work a treat and haven’t had any gone missing since.

Just saying for reference.

Bob

[Driller]

Another good shout Bob thanks.

Now I must admit, I’m a bit of a freak when it comes to cables. I think it comes from my dad who always had a tendency to over react to things.

The upshot is I’m always very anxious that the wires in a cable will get damaged and there will be an intermittent fault.

It drives me absolutely mad when I see people treating cables like bits of rope.

Anyway...when people walk on the rubber mats, don’t the cables get squished against the ground underneath? With a lot of people walking about could that do some damage?

Been looking at cable protector conduit.

[Driller]

Well I did a test Friday with the 2 MC930s and just four 5 year olds singing and it worked even better than anticipated. The sound was clear and loud even with a distance of a couple of meters to the mics.

With a whole group of 25 odd the sound should be even louder I guess.

I think now the most complicated part is going to be running the cables and positioning speakers and stands so they don’t knocked over.

[Bob Bickerton]

That's all good news.

In terms of cable management you may want to check out this site: https://www.theramppeople.co.uk/cable-protectors/rubber-cable-protectors

Something like this could help:



And black and yellow hazard tape on speaker legs can help people avoid them.

Bob

[Driller]

I took delivery of 36M of that rubber conduit last week-thanks for the tip Bob!

On Ancar they noté I saw a news report on the Grenfel Tower commémorations and saw this set up:



Are those condensors or dynamics?



Great (and expensive!) way to avoid the cable problem anyway!

[Sam Spoons]

Without identifying the specific model they could be either capacitor or dynamic, cardioid or supercardioid depending on the capsule (which on decent wireless mics are interchangeable and available on all of the above. Most vocal mics though are cardioid dynamics (omni/cardioid/supercardioid refers to the polar (pickup) pattern and capacitor/dynamic the transducer type).

[James Perrett]

On Ancar they noté I saw a news report on the Grenfel Tower commémorations and saw this set up:

Not sure I'd use that as an example of good practice although, as you say, it solves the cable problem and would be quick to set up and take down.

[Driller]

Thanks for your thoughts guys, I didn’t notice so much time had gone by since I posted last.

Well it’s the big day Friday and I just wanted to say another big thank you for all the help here. One final question: I have a Mixwizard WZ4 wired up in an L rack in the rehearsal room and a Yamaha MG12XU in a flight case ready to go.

Would you go for the nice pres on the WZ4 and haul it out or is the easy option of the MG12 good enough for this in your view?

[Drew Stephenson]

Easy option every time! You're not going to notice the difference in mic pres in this kind of environment.
Good luck

[Driller]

I was hoping you’d say that

Thanks again for everything!

[Driller]

Last minute panicking!

I'm going to use 30M long XLR cables in that rubber protector I bought but then realised I have a 10M XLR/jack snake. This doesn't really fit in the rubber protector but I also bought 10m of 1M wide rubber matting.

1) If I cover the snake with the matting will it be protected ok if people walk on it?
2) The matting is 1M wide so I'm going to cut it lengthways-how wide does it need to be to not get folded over? 50 cm? 30cm?

BTW the matting is only 3mm thick (didn't realise how light this would be), should have got 4mm or more.

Many thanks for last minute help! (I'm definitely panicking a bit)