Cassette Tapes are back?

Discuss hardware/software tools and techniques involved in capturing sound, in the studio, live or on location.

Re: Cassette Tapes are back?

Post by ef37a »

James Perrett wrote:
The Bunk wrote:
ManFromGlass wrote: On the serious, well semi, serious side - after setting up a turntable et al I realized I was too lazy to stand up every 18 minutes to flip the lp over. At least with cassettes certain decks could play side 2 after side 1 automatically. I have a vague memory of side 2 played this way often sounded like crap, where turning the cassette over to play side 2 sounded fine.

I remember that! Presumably it because that tape basically played backwards which, well, surely just isn't right.

Nakamichi thought it was wrong too - which is why they came up with this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrFU9kQrvNk

I cannot see that helps the supposed problem much? Cassette tape can "pack" against one side of the case and cause wow and probably weaving over the heads and poor sound. Just flipping the cassette round won't fix that AFAICS.

But again, it is not a problem I ever had. My first machine was a mid priced Yamaha which was not a full, i.e. vertical front loader, never a bother. Later came the Denon* full frontal but servo loading and twin capstans and a precision transport takes the cassette housing largely out of the performance equation. Again, no flipping problem!

I now have a rather nice Sony Dolby S machine and am setting up to digitize a big stack of son's cassettes.

*The Denon was an uncollected repair. It had been dropped and the capstan servo board cracked plus other damage. Since it was impossible to give even a guess at cost I quoted a high minimum but with the caution that labour costs could double that. I also had no idea how much a new servo board would cost, in the event, very reasonable! I spent quite some time tracing and fixing other breaks though.

Dave.
ef37a
Jedi Poster
Posts: 19143 Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 12:00 am Location: northampton uk

Re: Cassette Tapes are back?

Post by ef37a »

ken long wrote:
ef37a wrote: The Philips engineers succeeded famously and despite the half tape width the results were easily as good as VHS or Betamax.

Do you mean HiFi tracks? I mean, they were OK but not great and they didn't utilise most of the tape also?

F1 stuff was cool but that was digital. Now that sounded great! Terrible signal loss over time though.

What I find funny about the cassette revival is the indie designers have started adding dbx or Dolby logos on J cards for nostalgia's sake but for no technical reason.

I've bought a few new cassettes in the last couple of years and they don't sound great in general but they are nice to own and it supports independent artists so I'm all for that.

No, I am talking of a VIDEO system that used 1/2 the tape width and could be flipped as per a Music cassette. I don't know but I would guess the audio was a version of hi fi video sound. Before that I had a Ferguson (aka JVC) VHS machine and the HF sound on that was a revelation!
ef37a
Jedi Poster
Posts: 19143 Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 12:00 am Location: northampton uk

Re: Cassette Tapes are back?

Post by Dynamic Mike »

Cassette really took off back in the day because of the features it offered teenagers that we couldn't get in any other domestic format, not because of the sound quality.

1) you could record stuff you didn't own from records/radio.
2) you could lend people stuff & not worry about it getting scratched
3) you could skip tracks you didn't like
4) you could make mixtapes for personal listening, parties & more importantly girls
5) you could play the same bit over & over & over (guitarists will get this)
6) you could fit a few in your pocket at once
7) you could safely change a cassette no matter how drunk you were
8) later cassette players had skip/repeat/shuffle/fast copy options

We expect these features now, but back then... Wow
Dynamic Mike
Longtime Poster
Posts: 5291 Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 12:00 am
Why do bad things mostly seem to happen to people who light up a room when they enter it?

Re: Cassette Tapes are back?

Post by ef37a »

Quite so Mike.
The cassette grew from a dictating machine concept AFAIK and was never originally intended as a very high quality music medium, but, as you say it was SUCH a handy device that people used it as such. Many here will remember the portable mono recorders with piano key transport controls! Eventually machines were developed that had at least as good a spec as vinyl but with none of its vulnerabilities. I will agree that commercial high speed copied tapes were never quite to LP standards?

The record industry of course HATED it! Blamed it for robbing the musicians of income (more the junketing fat cats of course!) We had the "Tape Levy" lobby and millions were spent on "inaudible" copy spoiler development. All seems very silly now.

However, even today there is still no other convenient way to record an audio source such as a radio programme or TV sound.

Dave.
ef37a
Jedi Poster
Posts: 19143 Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 12:00 am Location: northampton uk

Re: Cassette Tapes are back?

Post by Drew Stephenson »

ef37a wrote:However, even today there is still no other convenient way to record an audio source such as a radio programme or TV sound.

Except for those of us who still have our minidisc recorders! :D
User avatar
Drew Stephenson
Apprentice Guru
Posts: 29715 Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:00 am Location: York
(The forumuser formerly known as Blinddrew)
Ignore the post count, I have no idea what I'm doing...
https://drewstephenson.bandcamp.com/

Re: Cassette Tapes are back?

Post by ef37a »

blinddrew wrote:
ef37a wrote:However, even today there is still no other convenient way to record an audio source such as a radio programme or TV sound.

Except for those of us who still have our minidisc recorders! :D

Oh! I 've got two of those and one is a Grundig FCS! One of those is being integrated into the digitizing "suite" I am building with the cassette machine and a DVD player. I also have a VHS machine but have not fired it up in yonks so have to see if it still works.

Dave.
ef37a
Jedi Poster
Posts: 19143 Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 12:00 am Location: northampton uk

Re: Cassette Tapes are back?

Post by nathanscribe »

Wait, people still have radios and TVs? I thought teh kids just used their phones for everything now!
User avatar
nathanscribe
Frequent Poster
Posts: 1566 Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2007 12:00 am Location: Wakefield, for my sins.
I have no idea what I'm doing.

Re: Cassette Tapes are back?

Post by Guest »

I prefer cassettes to CDs (and I dislike streaming as well).
User avatar
Guest

Re: Cassette Tapes are back?

Post by James Perrett »

ef37a wrote:
Nakamichi thought it was wrong too - which is why they came up with this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrFU9kQrvNk

I cannot see that helps the supposed problem much? Cassette tape can "pack" against one side of the case and cause wow and probably weaving over the heads and poor sound. Just flipping the cassette round won't fix that AFAICS.

Well it may have been a bit of a gimmick (I never noticed a problem with the auto reverse in the car) but I've just got hold of one of those decks and it works very well as a player - it just seems to sound more stable than the other decks I have here. I do have a Hitachi 3 head dual capstan machine that needs new belts but I think the Nakamichi, despite being only a single capastan machine, sounds better.
Last edited by James Perrett on Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
James Perrett
Moderator
Posts: 16989 Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:00 am Location: The wilds of Hampshire
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration. JRP Music Facebook Page

Re: Cassette Tapes are back?

Post by ConcertinaChap »

Hugh Robjohns wrote:Moreover, the self-erasure issue with cassettes tends to appear worse than it really is because of the almost ubiquitous use of Dolby B, such that a slight loss of HF from the tape is further reduced by the mistracking action of the Dolby B decoder.

There is a plus side here, in that cassettes I recorded in the late 70s and 80s with Dolby encoding sound quite reasonable now with the Dolby switched off. In other words the Dolby encoding is compensating for the HF loss. It's all very rough and ready and of course you lose your hiss reduction but what the heck. If it sounds OK after all this time you're not doing too badly.

CC
User avatar
ConcertinaChap
Jedi Poster
Posts: 15235 Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:00 am Location: Bradford on Avon
Making music: Eagle Alley
Recording music: Mr Punch's Studio

Sir, more than kisses, letters mingle souls. - John Donne

Re: Cassette Tapes are back?

Post by ef37a »

James Perrett wrote:
ef37a wrote:
Nakamichi thought it was wrong too - which is why they came up with this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrFU9kQrvNk

I cannot see that helps the supposed problem much? Cassette tape can "pack" against one side of the case and cause wow and probably weaving over the heads and poor sound. Just flipping the cassette round won't fix that AFAICS.

Well it may have been a bit of a gimmick (I never noticed a problem with the auto reverse in the car) but I've just got hold of one of those decks and it works very well as a player - it just seems to sound more stable than the other decks I have here. I do have a Hitachi 3 head dual capstan machine that needs new belts but I think the Nakamichi, despite being only a single capastan machine, sounds better.

Aha! They HAD to flip the cassette because you need two capstans for auto-reverse!

But I doubt there would ever be a tape handling problem with a Nakamichi? REALLY well engineered.

Dave.
ef37a
Jedi Poster
Posts: 19143 Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 12:00 am Location: northampton uk

Re: Cassette Tapes are back?

Post by Tim Gillett »

Hugh Robjohns wrote:
ef37a wrote:I really don't see why any tape format should lose HF over time unless exposed to a magnetic field?

It's entropy innit? The signal recorded onto the tape via the orientation of magnetic particles degrades as those particles gradually attempt to revert back to their non-oriented state.

This happens on all tape formats, but is generally worse for thinner, slower tapes, and higher magnetic flux levels. So use standard-play tapes rather than long play, higher tape speeds where possible (open-reel, not cassette, obviously), and don't thrash the record meters to force heavy saturation!

Although gradual self-erasure affects all frequencies, it is the higher frequencies that are affected most quickly and most obviously, although keeping the tape cool helps to minimise the problem for long-term archives. The magnetic field embedded within adjacent layers of tape can also advance the self-erasure process (as well as leading to pre/post echos in some cases).

Moreover, the self-erasure issue with cassettes tends to appear worse than it really is because of the almost ubiquitous use of Dolby B, such that a slight loss of HF from the tape is further reduced by the mistracking action of the Dolby B decoder.

I also reiterate my point? Unless the tape had reference tones recorded on it (as studio Dolby A tapes always should) how could you know the HF was down on 5 years ago?

The obvious answer is to compare the (cassette) tape with the source. I have often done exactly that in my previous career, and can state that self-erasure really isn't a myth... although it might not be quite the huge problem some would claim!

H


I'm not sure either way on tape self erasure. I understood that higher energy tapes were harder to erase just as they're harder to magnetise. So a Type II or Type IV tape would be less subject to accidental erasure than a Type I.

I also thought that multiple plays in a machine tended to gradually erase tapes hence the qualifier with calibration tapes to check them after a certain number of plays, not necessarily after a certain time. Also the need to properly demagnetise a tape machine to minimise the tendency to gradually erase tapes after multiple plays.

It's wavelength related too, only indirectly to frequency. So a loss of 3 db at 10kHz on a cassette would be equivalent on a pro reel to reel tape to a loss of 3 db at 80kHz which of course no one would notice.

I agree any serious test needs to be done with careful measurements. The thing with tape is that there are multiple causes for loss of the highs, not just self erasure. So , a tiny speck of dirt on a repro head, a worn or misaligned head, in various planes, can be enough to compromise the highs. It's often not appreciated that just playing a tape back at its optimum is not always easy.

Here's an example of a cassette recording (Maxell UDR Type I) I made off the TV in 1976. It's been played many times over the years but it seems to have survived reasonably well. Of course this cassette recording off TV cant hope to compete with the original BBC videotape's audio quality. The vision isn't my recording, only the audio.

https://youtu.be/KYFVx4gpe9c
Last edited by Tim Gillett on Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
Tim Gillett
Frequent Poster
Posts: 2707 Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:00 am Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Cassette Tapes are back?

Post by Rich Hanson »

With respect to auto-reverse sound quality, I found it depended on the system (albeit only two data points from me) - the system I had where there was a stereo head that was rotated when the tape was reversed was very much prone to mis-tracking. The other system was a four track head which was electronically switched when reversing direction. The latter was much more reliable.

I found this an interesting watch, too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVoSQP2yUYA
User avatar
Rich Hanson
Frequent Poster
Posts: 3686 Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 12:00 am Location: Sort of near Rochester, Kent, UK

Re: Cassette Tapes are back?

Post by ManFromGlass »

Image
User avatar
ManFromGlass
Longtime Poster
Posts: 7858 Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:00 am Location: O Canada

Re: Cassette Tapes are back?

Post by ken long »

blinddrew wrote:
ef37a wrote:However, even today there is still no other convenient way to record an audio source such as a radio programme or TV sound.

Except for those of us who still have our minidisc recorders! :D

Aaaahh... but that's compressed audio, like MP3.
User avatar
ken long
Frequent Poster
Posts: 3631 Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:00 am Location: Somers Town
I'm All Ears.

Re: Cassette Tapes are back?

Post by Hugh Robjohns »

ken long wrote:Aaaahh... but that's compressed audio, like MP3.

I much prefer the term 'data-reduced' as it allows far less room for misunderstandings. :D

But while MiniDisc does indeed use data-reduction, (called ATRAC) it's worth noting that it is actually a far more sophisticated and advanced form than MP3.

H
User avatar
Hugh Robjohns
Moderator
Posts: 43691 Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:00 am Location: Worcestershire, UK
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound...
(But generally posting my own personal views and not necessarily those of SOS, the company or the magazine!)
In my world, things get less strange when I read the manual... 

Re: Cassette Tapes are back?

Post by ef37a »

ken long wrote:
blinddrew wrote:
ef37a wrote:However, even today there is still no other convenient way to record an audio source such as a radio programme or TV sound.

Except for those of us who still have our minidisc recorders! :D

Aaaahh... but that's compressed audio, like MP3.

Better than MP3 though I would aver? I have done (unscientific and v limited) test copying CD to MD and I could not tell a difference but I understand some music genres are more demanding than others? Choral work e.g? But as I said earlier, I would be quite happy for a MD to have the same playing time as LP but 16 bit linear. I understand the CD was originally going to be smaller and with less time? The "wives tale" is that the size was insisted upon to get the playing time and the odd sampling rate for much the same reason (the disc HAD to fit a Euro car slot?) I mean, why are they not 48kHz?

Butty but..Tape is NOT compressed?!! I have an AES journal article about a tape pre-distortion unit and it is said listening to what tape actually does to sound is horrendous!

Sorry Hugh, did not see your reply. I did not get the warning this time, have they scrapped the idea? Never stopped me making a (***) of meself anyway!

Dave.
Last edited by ef37a on Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
ef37a
Jedi Poster
Posts: 19143 Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 12:00 am Location: northampton uk

Re: Cassette Tapes are back?

Post by Wonks »

Hugh Robjohns wrote:But while MiniDisc does indeed use data-reduction, (called ATRAC) it's worth noting that it is actually a far more sophisticated and advanced form than MP3.

It had the ability to block out all bagpipe, accordion and banjo sounds? Brilliant! :D
User avatar
Wonks
Jedi Poster
Posts: 19208 Joined: Thu May 29, 2003 12:00 am Location: Freethorpe, Norfolk, UK
Reliably fallible.

Re: Cassette Tapes are back?

Post by Hugh Robjohns »

ef37a wrote:The "wives tale" is that the size was insisted upon to get the playing time and the odd sampling rate for much the same reason (the disc HAD to fit a Euro car slot?) I mean, why are they not 48kHz?

Last question first, The reasons CDs (and the standard for other commercial music) use a 44.1kHz sample rate is entirely due to Mr Sony having a warehouse full of NTSC U-matic recorders. Prior to Sony's development of the CD format early digital audio experimenters were generally working with bespoke hardware recorders of various types and sample rates of 50 or 60kHz.

Of course, it was clear that the sample rate had to be sufficient to allow a 20kHz bandwidth, which meant a rate of greater than 40kHz, but higher sample rates were increasingly difficult to generate so Mr Sony wanted to keep it as close to 40kHz as he could. It was also clear that 14 bit wordlength was the minimum for an acceptable dynamic range in a consumer product, with 16 bit as the target for professional applications (at that time that was the absolute state of the art).

Mr Sony could build A-D and D-A converters well enough (for the time), but the question was what to store all this audio data on for the CD mastering houses and production plants? The answer was those Umatic video recorders, and consequently the Sony PCM1600 (and later the 1610 and 1630) digital audio boxes digitised audio and made it look like a black and white video signal to be recorded and replayed on/off Umatic machines. (They also did the same with the F1 and later PCM701/601/501 consumer digital encoders using betamax.)

Image

Being in Japan, the Umatic video recorders worked with a 30 frame, 525 line (B&W) video format. Not all of the video lines are available in a rotary-head video recorder because of the head-switching, and they settled on using 490 lines for the digital audio. It was also essential that whole audio samples are stored per line (rather than splitting them over adjacent lines), and with 16-bits per sample the video resolution allowed three samples per line plus some basic error protection coding.

So, do the maths: 3 samples per line x 490 usable lines per picture frame x 30 frames per second = 44100 samples per second!

And that's why we're stuck with 44.1kHz as the basic audio sample rate.

Amusingly, when Mr Sony went on to develop a European PAL (635 line/25 frame) version of the hardware, the ended up using the same 3 sample per line structure, but 588 active lines, so the sums are 3 x 588 x 25... which also equals 44.1 samples per second!

Later, when it came to sound on digital video recorders it became necessary to ensure a whole number of audio samples per video frame (to allow easy editing). Although 44.1 obviously works with 25 fps PAL and 30fps B&W NTSC, it doesn't work with 29.97 fps colour NTSC or 24fps film.

The next lowest available number that does work is 48kHz, which works perfectly with PAL, B&W NTSC and film. It still doesn't work with 29.97 colour NTSC but nothing practical will anyway... but there is an easy bodge where five frames of 29.97 hold a whole number of audio samples. So 48kHz became the standard sample rate for all things video.

It would have been so much better had the original CD audio sample rate been selected as 60kHz (which would work for all video formats in the same way as 48k does), as then we would have had no need for double (96k) rates etc.. but such is life!

As for the physical size of the CD, the limiting factor was a disc that would fit in a standard ISO-sized car hi-fi unit. The alleged requirement to accommodate sufficient play time for a Beethoven symphony was obvious, but probably secondary, and there was some wriggle room anyway in the choice of the linear rotational speed and data coding format!

H
User avatar
Hugh Robjohns
Moderator
Posts: 43691 Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:00 am Location: Worcestershire, UK
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound...
(But generally posting my own personal views and not necessarily those of SOS, the company or the magazine!)
In my world, things get less strange when I read the manual... 

Re: Cassette Tapes are back?

Post by ef37a »

Thank you Hugh and I bet that all came out of your head!

I would love to know what politking went on to keep the MDisc out of car audio? The format is so obviously better suited having intrinsic protection. The vulnerability of the cassette has been touched upon and of course, despite great claims for it at the time, the CD will not put up with very much abuse.

MD sound quality is, as you say, very good if not quite 16bit linear but in a car?! The MD can also record double time and again the quality loss for ICE would not be an issue for the majority of people.

I recall the Great Four Channel Fiasco and I believe Philips would not relax the patent to allow 4 tracks one way? Had they done so maybe 4CH would have taken off and all those silly disc coding systems swept aside?

Dave.
ef37a
Jedi Poster
Posts: 19143 Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 12:00 am Location: northampton uk

Re: Cassette Tapes are back?

Post by Hugh Robjohns »

ef37a wrote:Thank you Hugh and I bet that all came out of your head!

It did... but then I've been teaching that kind of stuff to students for over twenty years now! ;-)

I would love to know what politking went on to keep the MDisc out of car audio?

I don't think it did. MD was a hugely popular format in the US and Japan, and there were a great many in-car MD players. It just never really caught on that well in the UK.

The format is so obviously better suited having intrinsic protection.

Absolutely. The manufacturers learned from the mistakes of the CD format. They thought the biggest problem with CD would be dropouts due to pin-holes in the mirrored layer, so that's what they optimised the error protection system to deal with. However, the mirroring was quickly perfected and the real issue was deep surface scratches and optical contamination (grease etc) which caused mistracking and defeated the error protection systems. Encasing the disc in a plastic box removed those risks very effectively.

H
User avatar
Hugh Robjohns
Moderator
Posts: 43691 Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:00 am Location: Worcestershire, UK
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound...
(But generally posting my own personal views and not necessarily those of SOS, the company or the magazine!)
In my world, things get less strange when I read the manual... 

Re: Cassette Tapes are back?

Post by Sam Spoons »

I still have several working MD devices. Three in-car players (in storage now mind you but not yet consigned to the tip) and my ballet teacher wife used them as an upgrade from cassettes (which the dance festival world used from the very early days and most festivals still have cassette playback as an option). MD was superior in almost every way to cassette and has a fair few advantages over CD (recordability, editability, shock resistance on playback and robustness....).
Last edited by Hugh Robjohns on Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Sam Spoons
Forum Aficionado
Posts: 22906 Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:00 am Location: Manchester UK
Still mourning the loss of my 'Jedi Poster" status :)

People often mistake me for a grown-up because of my age.

Re: Cassette Tapes are back?

Post by Wonks »

Car manufacturers in the UK were never going to fit MD players in cars as standard without a MD customer base that was as large as for cassette players (and subsequently for CD players after the fairly quick changeover to CDs being the main music medium). Most of Joe Public weren't interested enough in the crossover period from analogue to digital to have a record player, cassette player/recorder, CD player and minidisc player/recorder at home to make MD players as standard in cars worthwhile. The anti-copy systems on digital media also meant that someone would probably be unable to copy from a CD to MD very easily (never had one so don't know how successful or widespread this was), whilst copying from record or CD to a cassette was easy, and generally the cassette sound quality was good enough for the car.
User avatar
Wonks
Jedi Poster
Posts: 19208 Joined: Thu May 29, 2003 12:00 am Location: Freethorpe, Norfolk, UK
Reliably fallible.

Re: Cassette Tapes are back?

Post by John Willett »

ken long wrote:
blinddrew wrote:
ef37a wrote:However, even today there is still no other convenient way to record an audio source such as a radio programme or TV sound.

Except for those of us who still have our minidisc recorders! :D

Aaaahh... but that's compressed audio, like MP3.

Compressed - but not like MP3 ;)
User avatar
John Willett
Longtime Poster
Posts: 7297 Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2000 12:00 am Location: Oxfordshire UK
John
Sound-Link ProAudio
Circle Sound Services
Sound-Link are UK Distributors for: Microtech Gefell, ME-Geithain, AETA, HUM, Håkan, Meyer Turtle

Re: Cassette Tapes are back?

Post by Humble Bee »

Thanks Hugh for that great read about the 44.1 kHz story! You could write a book on that and I for one would buy it!
Cheers!
User avatar
Humble Bee
Regular
Posts: 395 Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:00 am Location: Cloughton Newlands
Post Reply