Wonks wrote:The anti-copy systems on digital media also meant that someone would probably be unable to copy from a CD to MD very easily (never had one so don't know how successful or widespread this was), whilst copying from record or CD to a cassette was easy, and generally the cassette sound quality was good enough for the car.
Copying to a Sony minidisc was easy, basically drag and drop to Sony's branded Jukebox/Media player (I forget the name, maybe OpenMD?) then copy to disc. Copying back was fine except it changed the format to NetMD such that it could only be played on OpenMD. The standard installation for OpenMD changed every mp3/WMA/WAV file it found on your hard drive into Sony's preferred format, even your own unprotected tracks! Undoing the damage was a nightmare. I remember someone here posting that if Sony had a school report it would say 'doesn't play well with others'. How true.
Thanks for that picture and the explanation Hugh - just last night I was trying to explain the idea of digital audio stored on video tape to a video editor friend of mine who hadn't come across the idea before. We have a mutual friend with some PCM-F1 tapes and my video editor mate has a working Betamax machine but I had no idea what the tapes would look like if he tried to play them.
Wonks wrote:The anti-copy systems on digital media also meant that someone would probably be unable to copy from a CD to MD very easily (never had one so don't know how successful or widespread this was), whilst copying from record or CD to a cassette was easy, and generally the cassette sound quality was good enough for the car.
Copying to a Sony minidisc was easy, basically drag and drop to Sony's branded Jukebox/Media player (I forget the name, maybe OpenMD?) then copy to disc. Copying back was fine except it changed the format to NetMD such that it could only be played on OpenMD. The standard installation for OpenMD changed every mp3/WMA/WAV file it found on your hard drive into Sony's preferred format, even your own unprotected tracks! Undoing the damage was a nightmare. I remember someone here posting that if Sony had a school report it would say 'doesn't play well with others'. How true.
It was an age ago but I am pretty sure I copied CDs from a PC with a 2496 card. Output via S/PDIF and a cheap co-ax/optical converter. The card stripped out any copy protection?
James Perrett wrote:Thanks for that picture and the explanation Hugh - just last night I was trying to explain the idea of digital audio stored on video tape to a video editor friend of mine who hadn't come across the idea before. We have a mutual friend with some PCM-F1 tapes and my video editor mate has a working Betamax machine but I had no idea what the tapes would look like if he tried to play them.
The consumer (PCMF1) generation of PCM adapters used a slightly different video structure from the professional 1600 series. Basically the same idea, but with fewer synching pulses and more of the horizontal line used for data.
Sony PCMF1.jpg (69.1 KiB) Viewed 1926 times
The most significant bit (MSB) of each sample is to the left, so you can see the signal cycling between +ve and -ve peaks as the changing broad black and white vertical sections. As you move from left to right across each line you can see six distinct samples (three pairs of left-right couples). These are all 14 bits wide. The louder the signal, the more bits in each sample start getting toggled and the narrower the black and white left-hand stripes become. Then there is another chunk which carries bits 15-16 for each sample, and then some housekeeping and error protection data to finish off the line.
Last edited by Hugh Robjohns on Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound...
(But generally posting my own personal views and not necessarily those of SOS, the company or the magazine!)
In my world, things get less strange when I read the manual...
Thanks Hugh - I have a copy of Sony's Digital Audio and Compact Disc Technology book from 1988 which covers all the data formats but it doesn't show any pictures of what they look like if played on a normal video recorder.
One thought that has just occured to me - I wonder if anyone has created a software decoder for these formats that works with a video capture card on a computer?
Wonks wrote:The anti-copy systems on digital media also meant that someone would probably be unable to copy from a CD to MD very easily (never had one so don't know how successful or widespread this was), whilst copying from record or CD to a cassette was easy, and generally the cassette sound quality was good enough for the car.
Copying to a Sony minidisc was easy, basically drag and drop to Sony's branded Jukebox/Media player (I forget the name, maybe OpenMD?) then copy to disc. Copying back was fine except it changed the format to NetMD such that it could only be played on OpenMD. The standard installation for OpenMD changed every mp3/WMA/WAV file it found on your hard drive into Sony's preferred format, even your own unprotected tracks! Undoing the damage was a nightmare. I remember someone here posting that if Sony had a school report it would say 'doesn't play well with others'. How true.
Yep, sounds about right. Lovely hardware, horrible software.
I guess how sony handles its items is their business but idk.
I've never been an expert but its interesting to read the comments of yours, the people who can tell so much about all these specific crates of audio aspects, im impressed.
ef37a wrote:However, even today there is still no other convenient way to record an audio source such as a radio programme or TV sound.
True a few years ago but now very easy. On the Mac I use Audio Hijack Pro, on Windows machines I used to use Audio Grabber. Just go to the programme you want on iPlayer (BBC) or whatever the equivalent is for the specific radio/TV programme, trigger the software and do as you will with the resulting recording.
I still have many cassettes that I made back in the day when it was the only convenient way and I listen to them, but there ain't no way I'm going back to recording on the buggers.
CC
Last edited by ConcertinaChap on Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
blinddrew wrote:Yep, sounds about right. Lovely hardware, horrible software.
Exactly. I think it was Sony Magic Gate DRM which according to Wiki was adopted in 2009 that caused all the issues I had. I think the intention was to allow you to copy music once onto another device but not allow another transfer. Not in itself a dreadful idea except it also added DRM protection to the original (and everything else it found & added to the media player library). Fortunately I'd backed pretty much everything up to a portable hard drive so I could restore it.
ef37a wrote:However, even today there is still no other convenient way to record an audio source such as a radio programme or TV sound.
True a few years ago but now very easy. On the Mac I use Audio Hijack Pro, on Windows machines I used to use Audio Grabber. Just go to the programme you want on iPlayer (BBC) or whatever the equivalent is for the specific radio/TV programme, trigger the software and do as you will with the resulting recording.
I still have many cassettes that I made back in the day when it was the only convenient way and I listen to them, but there ain't no way I'm going back to recording on the buggers.
CC
I am obliged CC and I have downloaded Grabber and shall give it a do later. But! Clunky! Clunky! You need a freakin' computer! Not the same as having a recording device permanently hooked up to one's home audio system.
As for not recording on cassette? As I say, my Sony DS machine is very close to CD with TDK SA and PDCclose on a good ferric, even "cooking" grade type ones are ok in the car.
Dave.
Last edited by ef37a on Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Erm ... I'm confused. Yes, you need a computer but then you don't need a cassette recorder, and from the fact that you're posting here I suspect you may already have a computer and even internet connectivity!
OK, try this. I have a lot of LPs which I am gradually digitising. To facilitate this I got a 2 in 2 out audio interface and connected it permanently to one of the sets (it has 2) of recording in/outs on my hi fi amplifier. I can then connect my laptop to it by one USB cable and record at a moment's notice straight off the radio or anything else that's connected to my amplifier. And as a bonus I've got my recording in the digital domain and not on a vulnerable cassette to join the untidy clutter of all the other cassettes.
Of course I rarely do this (apart from the LPs, of course) because it's much more convenient just to record on my main computer than either the laptop or the cassette recorder attached to the amplifier ...
CC
PS it's been a long time since any of my cars had a cassette player. OTOH my current car can play MP3s off a memory stick.
Last edited by ConcertinaChap on Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
ConcertinaChap wrote:Erm ... I'm confused. Yes, you need a computer, but then you don't need a cassette recorder, and from the fact that you're posting here I suspect you may already have a computer and even internet connectivity!
OK, try this. I have a lot of LPs which I am gradually digitising. To facilitate this I got a 2 in 2 out audio interface and connected it permanently to one of the sets (it has 2) of recording in/outs on my hi fi amplifier. I can then connect my laptop to it by one USB cable and record at a moment's notice straight off the radio or anything else that's connected to my amplifier. And as a bonus I've got my recording in the digital domain and not on a vulnerable cassette to join the untidy clutter of all the other cassettes.
Of course I rarely do this (apart from the LPs, of course) because it's much more convenient just to record on my main computer than either the laptop or the cassette recorder attached to the amplifier ...
CC
PS it's been a long time since any of my cars had a cassette player. OTOH my current car can play MP3s off a memory stick.
Ok yes but. When my hi fi rig was setup (all fall down, another story, will get back to it one day) I had receiver, turntable and cassette machine all hooked up and could record LPs or radio as I wished. HAD I had a laptop at the time I would not have wanted it tied up for hours (proms say) in real time recording!
I have an old '97 Proton (1800 16 valves, goes like **** off a shovel) and I have just got my 2nd, post 70 license. Not sure I will honestly get one in another 3 years so the Proton will have to do. Very, very reliable.
