Multiple Midi outputs

[Ez]

Hi,

This is my first post so apologies if I don’t quite get the etiquette.

I have recently assembled the Hobbytronics USB to Midi host controller board so I can use my keyboards with my stage piano which only has a “to host” socket. The board works well but I would like to add a second Midi Out socket so I can use multiple keyboards - none of them have a thru socket. I have scoured the internet and there a plenty of variations on the theme. Quite frankly I don’t know which circuit to go with. Can I take the existing Midi out, put it through a hex inverter, say a 74LS14 and then into another out socket or is there an alternative?

Thanks for a great forum.

[Wonks]

That was your 7th post. This was your first one back in 2016. https://www.soundonsound.com/forum/view ... 06#p449706

Are you sure you are who you think you are?

[Wonks]

You'll need a MIDI Thru box. There's normally a choice of 2 to 5 outputs from commercially available boxes, though there's not a huge price difference between them. A 1 to 2 box might get away with being powered from the 5v supplied by the MIDI in, but more than that and they can be unreliable, so one powered with a wall-wart is recommended.

[Ez]

Ouch! Suffering from information overload, can’t remember what I did last week let alone 2016.

[Ez]

Thanks Wonks, I have considered a thru box from the likes of Midi Solutions or Kenton but I was rather hoping not to add another box to the setup.

[Folderol]

As you've already assembled the converter, you simply need to duplicate the output using something like 74LS04 inverters.

Patch into the same place as the existing one gets its feed from. Don't forget you must have the 220ohm resistors. One on the output and one for the +5V return.
Within reason, you can patch in as many as you like!

[Ez]

Thanks Foderol. Will give it a try.

[Ez]

Er sorry I meant Folderol)

[Wonks]

Don't worry. Folderol can't spell his own name after typing a few lines of Linux.

[Ez]

On the subject I Midi, do you think it will become obsolete in a few years time as keyboards become more DAW orientated or is it still widely used?

[Ez]

And I don’t know Folderol to be able to rib him

[Folderol]

And I don’t know Folderol to be able to rib him

Doesn't seem to stop anyone else round here
Oh, and the death of MIDI has been predicted for at least 10 years.

[Ez]

But is there a viable alternative?

[BillB]

Take a look at the fabulous Muzines site (thanks AGAIN Desmond )

How to add in, outs, and thrus to a MIDI interface:
http://www.muzines.co.uk/articles/practically-midi/2523

Note the errata at the bottom (thanks AGAIN Desmond for attention to detail!)

And here’s a lovely article telling us what’s wrong with MIDI and how it needs to be updated to faster systems - from 1986!
http://www.muzines.co.uk/articles/midi- ... th-it/1398

[Drew Stephenson]

At the moment it seems to be the only 'standard' that actually is. Hopefully that will long continue.
I'm sure one of the more technical folks will comment on whether there's any viable alternatives in the wings.

[BillB]

But is there a viable alternative?

Sure, do it all “inside the box”. Plenty of people do. But if you want dependable links between any music hardware of the last 35 years, MIDI is superbly designed and up to the job, provided you accept and work-around the shortcomings (for example as in the second article above). In the same way, you have worked around the annoying cost-cutting trend by manufacturers to omit hardware DIN MIDI sockets in favour of USB-PC. But thank goodness that Hobbytronics have provided cost-effective options in USB-MIDI.

[Wonks]

MIDI is far from dead, and is likely to have a major update very soon: https://www.residentadvisor.net/news/42 ... gzEUt57U5A
What you may see happen is the demise of the DIN sockets and a switch to MIDI over USB on new products. Already, a lot of the master keyboards available only have USB connections, no DIN sockets at all.

But as long as old synths remain popular, then there are always going to be DIN to USB or USB to DIN converters around.

[Ez]

MIDI is far from dead, and is likely to have a major update very soon: https://www.residentadvisor.net/news/42 ... gzEUt57U5A
What you may see happen is the demise of the DIN sockets and a switch to MIDI over USB on new products. Already, a lot of the master keyboards available only have USB connections, no DIN sockets at all.

But as long as old synths remain popular, then there are always going to be DIN to USB or USB to DIN converters around.

That is what Ifind worrying. I’m not entirely convinced of the mechanical reliability of the USB socket verses the good old DIN variety. On consumer goods that’s fine but on professional grade products that are used in the touring industry I don’t know how long the sockets will last with repeated plugging/unplugging - often night after night. I guess the design gurus would have factored this in to the pricing?

[Folderol]

Depends a lot on the quality of the plugs sockets and cables - to say nothing of how many beers you've had before the end of the session.

On a personal note (C mostly) I run two keyboards, a synth module, and a controller module into a 4 port MIDI -> USB hub which is well built, and I use quality cables throughout. This largely avoids the latency issues of MIDI as I'm not using THRU at all so not trying to stuff too much through one piece of wire,

[ef37a]

I have only dabbled with MIDI for son but found it an interesting exercise.

I too deplore the lack of DIN ports on much modern equipment (where things are very wee, the 3.5mm TRS jack is acceptable SO LONG as I do not have to solder them!)

There is the argument that USB is ok and things can all be done "in the box"? Well, if you want a MIDI INPUT they can't!

DINs more rugged than USB? Oh, I don't know? Tread on a cheapish DIN plug. Buggered. I have hoofed the odd USB plug and bent it back to working. I will admit USB ports are vulnerable to having the PCB tracks broken. I have had to replace a couple on the front of desktops that I have "kneed".

For a rugged connector can I put in a word for the RJ45? Ok, you need a crimp tool to make your own but the cables are MUCH easier to source now than DINs. Cheap as chips and will stand the odd size 12. Not good to "steal" a connector from another protocol? Well, DIN was anyway and people put watts of DC through the buggers. Rj45 is used for Dante etc and whilst that is technically a network you can't get Google on it. Can't pin it down now but I am sure I have seen kit in SoS that used RJ45 for some other purpose?

And! a network patchbay would make a superb MIDI patchbay!

Dave.

[James Perrett]

That is what Ifind worrying. I’m not entirely convinced of the mechanical reliability of the USB socket verses the good old DIN variety. On consumer goods that’s fine but on professional grade products that are used in the touring industry I don’t know how long the sockets will last with repeated plugging/unplugging - often night after night. I guess the design gurus would have factored this in to the pricing?

Neither the standard DIN socket or the standard USB socket are professional grade connectors. You can buy metal shell locking DIN connectors which would be better but I don't think that anyone is using them for MIDI at the moment.

[Folderol]

That is what Ifind worrying. I’m not entirely convinced of the mechanical reliability of the USB socket verses the good old DIN variety. On consumer goods that’s fine but on professional grade products that are used in the touring industry I don’t know how long the sockets will last with repeated plugging/unplugging - often night after night. I guess the design gurus would have factored this in to the pricing?

Neither the standard DIN socket or the standard USB socket are professional grade connectors. You can buy metal shell locking DIN connectors which would be better but I don't think that anyone is using them for MIDI at the moment.

You can also get heavy duty plugs without the locking ring that will still fit a standard DIN socket. Hurts a lot when you tread on them, but the plug doesn't mind!

[ef37a]

That is what Ifind worrying. I’m not entirely convinced of the mechanical reliability of the USB socket verses the good old DIN variety. On consumer goods that’s fine but on professional grade products that are used in the touring industry I don’t know how long the sockets will last with repeated plugging/unplugging - often night after night. I guess the design gurus would have factored this in to the pricing?

Neither the standard DIN socket or the standard USB socket are professional grade connectors. You can buy metal shell locking DIN connectors which would be better but I don't think that anyone is using them for MIDI at the moment.

You can also get heavy duty plugs without the locking ring that will still fit a standard DIN socket. Hurts a lot when you tread on them, but the plug doesn't mind!

I understand MIDI was originally on XLR-3? I am surprised that the standard audio DIN was taken up? Why not the much less common "B" type with its 240dgr pin index? Much easier to solder.

I have a couple of old all metal RS DIN MIDI cables (made up from FTP CAT cable!) They are indeed Doc Marten proof but all DIN plugs suffer from a poor cable clamp system, though heat shrink helps.

Dave.

[Ez]

I’ll wait with ‘baited breath’ for the future demise of Midi - much the same as the good old PSTN network and copper telephone wires. In the mean time as a communications protocol it meets my requirements.

Thanks for all your input. Nailed the extras outputs query

Eric