the latest Behringer-gate

[Hugh Robjohns]

In the interests of transparency, legitimate forum members will be unsurprised to learn that it appears Ray_S, who claims to 'have no dog in this race', is actually posting from the same IP address as Behringer's Russian web host... Oh well....

[ramthelinefeed]

In the interests of transparency, legitimate forum members will be unsurprised to learn that it appears Ray_S, who claims to 'have no dog in this race', is actually posting from the same IP address as Behringer's Russian web host... Oh well....

[ramthelinefeed]

It's not really just about whether Behringer's Attack of the Clones is *legal*,
it's whether it's taking the bloody piss or not.

Making mass-produced cheap knock-offs of classic gear could be spun as a benificent public service, providing access for all to wondrous instruments.

That doesn't seem to be the way our specious Russian friend is spinning it though - more like it's their legal right and the way humanity's engineering destiny shall progress.

As musicians, one of our main battles in life is NOT GETTING RIPPED OFF by people trying to commercially exploit our creativity for free.
If Behringer is just exploiting the creativity of previous engineering pioneers (and the kudos given to those instruments by the musicians who made wonderful music with them), then I do think many musicians will think they are taking the piss.

[The Elf]

I don't see why Behringer should be picked out as deserving special attention for cloning a synth?

Have we forgotten the other MiniMoog clones? SE1? SE-02?

What about all the TB-303 clones - are they all getting the blessing from Roland?

I'm not saying Behringer are snow-white (and you know I've had my part to say on some of their gear. Cable tester? 'nuff said), but why no flak in other directions?

[Escapegoat]

I don't see why Behringer should be picked out as deserving special attention for cloning a synth?
...

I'm not saying Behringer are snow-white (and you know I've had my part to say on some of their gear. Cable tester? 'nuff said), but why no flak in other directions?

Again. It's not being a copycat (shameless or otherwise) that's the current issue: it's threatening competitors, bystanders and media for expressing their opinion on it.

Seems to me that Uli is trying to pretend he's no copycat, while turning out a near endless series of copycat products. (And it's being done in working conditions that some people are questioning.)

On a personal level, I'm also frustrated with Behringer because - as it showed with the X32/X-air series and then the DM12 - it has the R&D resources and human capital to push music tech along. But instead we get backwards-looking clones made to the lowest possible price point.

[The Elf]

But instead we get backwards-looking clones made to the lowest possible price point.

Meaning that many people who could never afford a real MiniMoog can now buy a cheap MiniMoog clone.

I honestly don't understand why this is a problem.

[Escapegoat]

But instead we get backwards-looking clones made to the lowest possible price point.

Meaning that many people who could never afford a real MiniMoog can now buy a cheap MiniMoog clone.

I honestly don't understand why this is a problem.

Again (third time now!) that is not the problem being discussed here. You consciously cut out the part of my posting that did talk about the problem. Why? That's wilfully being obtuse; there's no "honestly" about it.

And even in the bit of my comment you left, you edited out my context: on a personal level, I wish Behringer would advance music tech instead of copycatting. It's an opportunity cost. IMHO, that is a different (but important) problem to the one we are discussing.

Want to try again?

[Drew Stephenson]

To be fair, you are not the only one on this thread mentioning their 'less-than-original design ethic', even if it's not the main point of the thread.

[Chevytraveller]

In the interests of transparency, legitimate forum members will be unsurprised to learn that it appears Ray_S, who claims to 'have no dog in this race', is actually posting from the same IP address as Behringer's Russian web host... Oh well....

Busted!..

[ConcertinaChap]

Busted!..

Indeed. Neat detective work. Mind you, he had snow on his boots, always a bit of a giveaway

CC

[Hugh Robjohns]

That's wilfully being obtuse; there's no "honestly" about it.

This seems to be becoming unnecessarily 'antsy'....

[Escapegoat]

That's wilfully being obtuse; there's no "honestly" about it.

This seems to be becoming unnecessarily 'antsy'....

Well, to me, being 'antsy' is more like threatening to sue forum members for voicing their honest opinions.

But I'll desist.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Thank you.

[DGL.]

An update on the RD-909, again from a reliable source (well he does own the company) over at 'the other world',

10 tool made samples are ready and there is a lot of extra features that they have added to the sequencer, such as the ability to use it to modulate the filter and analogue designer.

Targeting (excl. tax and import charges (pertinent to our American viewers)):

$299!

Images courtesy of Uli Behringer @ Gearslutz

[Dave B]

Yay! Just what the world needs! Another TR909 clone!

[resistorman]

Yay! Just what the world needs! Another TR909 clone!

[Eddy Deegan]

Yay! Just what the world needs! Another TR909 clone!

I know, I know but ... I'm still tempted

... as much for nostalgia as anything else. I always loved the way the 909 felt to use and I'm certainly not paying for a real one obviously, so this could be quite a fun little gizmo actually.

I'll wait and see what the general impression is when they hit the streets first though.

[DGL.]

The fact that it is bloddy cheap will be the reason most people will buy it.
I have a Model D and it's fantastic, not cheap-feeling even in the slightest and whilst I have never touched a real Moog, it most certainly has the 'Mini Moog' sound and that is all that really matters.

Plus by adding features over and above the original it gets away from people simply calling them clones.

[The Elf]

I sold my TR-909 and 808 and replaced with a TR-8... that I grew to dislike. I'd certainly consider these clones for the times I need them (and they are still requested a heck of a lot from various clients).

Pity about the external PSU, but sub 300 quid I can forgive it.

[Dave B]

In that scenario, I'd actually be looking at the Roland (shock horror!!!) TR8S. I wasn't impressed by the original TR8, but the new S version seems to be a proper product. And they've even fixed it now so it stays in time!

[The Elf]

Yes, the TR-8S is a much better machine. I took a good look at SynthFest and I was impressed that Roland had addressed many of the issues with the TR-8, especially the lack of outputs, though I feel that the 8S is still a couple of outputs short.

Roland has been asked for recreations of its analogue gear for long enough, yet they seem to choose to ignore it. They had their chance.

Behringer's clones are analogue - and they're priced to move in big numbers (and have oodles of outputs). I'd say that they're going to sell like the proverbial cakes.

[Dave B]

Roland have (apparently) just rolled off two bumper years and have sold more than they have in the last couple of decades. They credit this to the boutique range. I should really have asked if this was just units sold or actual profit... But anyway, they seem happy with what they have so good luck to 'em.

But it does raise some interesting questions about the ability to produce actual analogue hardware. Behringer seem to have invested in this - as have Korg and lots of smaller companies - and are able to do it competitively which leaves me wondering why Roland and Yamaha haven't also.

Meh ... not my problem. I have lots of lovely proper analogue kit to play with at the moment so I'm fine ...

[johnny h]

Roland have (apparently) just rolled off two bumper years and have sold more than they have in the last couple of decades. They credit this to the boutique range. I should really have asked if this was just units sold or actual profit... But anyway, they seem happy with what they have so good luck to 'em.

The boutique range is very ironically named. They use the cheapest possible materials and they are all absolutely identical inside, just with different front panels. This is why the TR09 has tiny bunched up knobs. They haven't even bothered to put a proper balanced full sized output on them, and the hum from the USB power is absolutely awful. Of course they make money from them. They must cost virtually nothing to manufacture.

But it does raise some interesting questions about the ability to produce actual analogue hardware. Behringer seem to have invested in this - as have Korg and lots of smaller companies - and are able to do it competitively which leaves me wondering why Roland and Yamaha haven't also.

Yamaha and Roland ditched their analogue teams back in the 80s. Roland get Studio Electronics to make their Minimoog clone. Roland just do the badge and marketing. Yamaha have absolutely no respect for their analogue legacy. They sent all their GX1s to the scrap yard back in the 80s.

[BillB]

Yamaha and Roland ditched their analogue teams back in the 80s.

I doubt that it is an issue of missing expertise. Most decent hobbyists could pick up a Robert Penfold electronics book and put together an analogue synth, so it is well within the scope of these mighty corporations. They will have all of the circuit diagrams etc of their analogue classics, and the wherewithal to convert them into modern, lower-cost manufacturing processes (as Behringer / Korg / Sequential / others have done). It would appear to be more down to market choices.

As Elf said

Roland has been asked for recreations of its analogue gear for long enough, yet they seem to choose to ignore it. They had their chance.

Given that many of designs are out (or will be coming out) of copyright, meaning no option to protect past works, it does seem foolish to miss the opportunity that others have so clearly seen. Even to test the water, as Korg did with the Monotron - 8 years ago!
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/korg-monotron

[BillB]

Ooh, Ooh! SOS Posts = 500! Yay!
I aim for small, achievable targets in life