Subs or not 2 subs

[gsc1ugs]

Hi
If i was in a 150 seater room, would 1 sub be enough? I know subs push air so need to ask, also, is it safer to buy active cabs than passive to protect them? If a crossover is included with a passive system would that protect the speakers equally?

[MarkPAman]

It rather depends on the sub(s) in question.

I think just one of these https://www.kv2audio.com/products/vhd-series/vhd421.html#tab_ProductVideo may be just about enough!

[Hugh Robjohns]

Nice!

... but I feel sorry for those big electrolytics alongside the enormous 50W wirewound resistor in the power amp!

H

[Wonks]

6kW RMS from a 13A socket? Maybe, but for how many milliseconds until those storage caps run dry? Suddenly your loud long Taurus bass pedal throb suddenly turns into a mere farting noise!

[AlecSp]

If i was in a 150 seater room, would 1 sub be enough?

The question is way over-simplistic - it depends on the room, the kind of music, the expected level, and the kit. Not all subs are the same. Expectations for a solo acoustic act will be rather different than for a grime DJ.

Is it safer to buy active cabs than passive to protect them? If a crossover is included with a passive system would that protect the speakers equally?

Given that your posts indicate that you're more towards the novice end of the spectrum, then yes, active cabs will typically offer much greater protection than passive - though it you're the aforementioned grime DJ, then you still might find ways of destroying drivers. A crossover will help - but only if set well, and used properly.

[gsc1ugs]

It rather depends on the sub(s) in question.

I think just one of these https://www.kv2audio.com/products/vhd-series/vhd421.html#tab_ProductVideo may be just about enough!

[MarkPAman]

6kW RMS from a 13A socket? Maybe, but for how many milliseconds until those storage caps run dry? Suddenly your loud long Taurus bass pedal throb suddenly turns into a mere farting noise!

Had a listen to just one (without the second cab) on demo in a 1000ish seat theatre. They only dared turn it full up for 20 seconds or so, for fear of damage to anyone's hearing. Amazed at how clean it sounds. I guess that 6kW to allow cleaner peaks makes a difference.

They do recommend that you use a bigger power supply if you have one available!

[ef37a]

Nice!

... but I feel sorry for those big electrolytics alongside the enormous 50W wirewound resistor in the power amp!

H

The only thing I can think that resistor might be for Hugh is inrush current limit and gets shorted out after a few seconds when the caps have charged?

There is another reason for two subs. Whilst it is true that very low frequencies give us little directional information in even quite large rooms if the room is really big there can be such information and definitely outdoors of course.

Dave.

[gsc1ugs]

mmmmmm, seems to have shot off in a different direction

[ef37a]

mmmmmm, seems to have shot off in a different direction

'It'appen. Especially here!

Dave.

[MarkPAman]

OK, So the Madness thing.

If you need subs then I'd look at two, powered, with built in stereo crossover (not just a low pass filter). Small & light enough you can move & store them easily.

Small gigs, you don't use them. Next size up you use one. Big gig (or strange shaped venue) you use both. Very big gigs, you're earning enough to hire.

How that for on topic?

[Wonks]

He's got Yamaha 15" tops with a high pass filter in, so low pass filter on the subs is all he needs.

[MarkPAman]

I know, but......

To get the set up to work properly, the subs' LPF needs to match the tops' HPF or there'll be all sorts of oddness around the cross over point with overlap, or missing bits. Both slope and frequency need to match*. This probably restricts the choice to only Yamaha subs. With a proper crossover (stereo so that it can work with one sub & two tops) the choice of subs becomes much larger.

Then when he decides to change to 12" or 10" tops for better vocal clarity, the choice there will be better too.

* Wonks, I know that you know

[Wonks]

We have gone over all this with him a couple of times previously and we always seem to end up right back where we started.

[Sam Spoons]

Buy one of these https://www.thomann.de/gb/yamaha_dsr118w.htm £827 as I type. Not worth buying anything mismatched if you're buying new, They produce a respectable 132 dB SPL and the X-overs will match the tops.

Bigger venues? Up your fee a couple of hundred and hire a rig and engineer.

[Wonks]

But if you thought the DXR15s were heavy and large....

[Sam Spoons]

But at least the sub does't need lifting onto a stand........

[Wonks]

But into and out of a van, maybe up steps into the venue, and he's a one-man outfit.

[Sam Spoons]

Yup, I have one and have done that, in/out of the van is not too difficult actually (my sub weighs 36kg) but more than a couple of steps and it definitely becomes a two man job. If I was hired to do a gig where stairs were involved I would stipulated that I'd need someone to assist the load in/out, either I'd bring somebody (for a fee) or the venue/band could supply a bit of extra muscle.

[gsc1ugs]

OK, So the Madness thing.

If you need subs then I'd look at two, powered, with built in stereo crossover (not just a low pass filter). Small & light enough you can move & store them easily.

Small gigs, you don't use them. Next size up you use one. Big gig (or strange shaped venue) you use both. Very big gigs, you're earning enough to hire.

How that for on topic?

Yes like the advice, what you recommend, somewhere in the middle?

[gsc1ugs]

I know i should of listened earlier, i know, i know BUT... these dxr15's really for drums bass etc, i'm backing and vocal so would need smaller but i do know the sub is important, i wont loose out on dxr15's only paid £650 for the pair and they still have stickers on like new, i keep looking back at the ID24 setup, small subs, heard in a large enough room, very good but i would take the advice off anyone who could come somewhere in the middle, tried and tested, shit hot,, and i would use an amp in a rack with controller if necessary.

[Sam Spoons]

The ID24 system is going to cost around £6-7k and is about 6dB down on a Yamaha DXR system costing around £2000.

[gsc1ugs]

Is that noticeable? 6db - What about Nexo PS8 with ls400 or ps10 with ls500 or rcf c3110 with the relevant subs? All these i can gwt my hands on at a good price, i can also get 2 x id24 with 1 id110 sub and controller for £1200

[Sam Spoons]

Let's just say if the DXR15s aren't adequate then you definitely don't want to be buying something less loud.

And yes 6dB is probably noticeably louder, 3dB not so much. IIRC 1 dB is the smallest change n volume we can perceive.

I don't have first hand experience of the Nexo's so can't advise but the ID24t costs £700 as does the controller, the ID-S110 is £1300 so £1200 seems very cheap (you'll still need an amp ). That will be a very nice rig but still may not be loud enough.

[gsc1ugs]

Let's just say if the DXR15s aren't adequate then you definitely don't want to be buying something less loud.

And yes 6dB is probably noticeably louder, 3dB not so much. IIRC 1 dB is the smallest change n volume we can perceive.

I don't have first hand experience of the Nexo's so can't advise but the ID24t costs £700 as does the controller, the ID-S110 is £1300 so £1200 seems very cheap (you'll still need an amp ). That will be a very nice rig but still may not be loud enough.

Ok, so we then move to th rcf with a powered root, c3110 with subs or these all in ones rcf evox, something thats not gonna tick me off, the grumble continues