Suggestion and ideas on speakers please

[Sam Spoons]

This was originally the thing I had in mind
https://www.thomann.de/gb/thomann_pract ... ndle_2.htm
From what I have been told 500W should be enough though
What do you think of the sound quality of the above link then?

That is why we ask for budget, no point in recommending £1k speakers if your budget is 200 quid.......

Given your budget something like this might be worth a look, for an acoustic act in a small venue it should be pretty decent for the money. No need for a mixer as it has one built in (and it has digital reverb). https://www.dawsons.co.uk/neo-acoustics-la10-line-array-pa-with-10-inch-sub?gclid=CjwKCAjwtYXmBRAOEiwAYsyl3DASXn287oPTtNH0MXgqhsVGF00SHWnZ-lNXTeeGZtRIV5y3W6BrSRoC6T0QAvD_BwE

[Deleted User]

Two standard box-type speakers are often used just to get good coverage to all the audience.

.

That would make sense why they use 2 and nothing to do with stereo as I first thought

Don't go by watts as a measure of speaker loudness. You need to look at the maximum SPL dB level. You can have an efficient 300W-rated speaker that's much louder than an inefficient 500W-rated speaker. So for powered speakers, you should be really looking for around 126dB peak or above. the Yamaha DXR10 has a 131dB peak SPL. You won't really want to run it flat out at that level, but it's really nice to have some headroom so that peak loud sounds remain clean. The lower the speaker's output, the harder you'll need to run it and then the sound can get a bit ragged.

The shop Dawsons said "500W should be enough" that is why I mentioned it

Is that 126dB at 1 meter away? My chainsaw is about that too

Those speakers in the Tomman shop are rated at 129dB
https://www.thomann.de/gb/the_box_pa_15 ... cc5446097c

But there is a big big difference in price compared to the Yamaha DXR10 you mentioned
https://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Li ... gn=bEngine - Yamaha&utm_medium=paid_search&network=google&adgroup=63994091163&matchtype=e&utm_term=yamaha dxr10&device=c&creative=344718753102&adposition=1t1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIq6LS66bs4QIVsTLTCh2yyASjEAAYASAAEgKCN_D_BwE

What do you think the difference between them are?

[Sam Spoons]

The Yamahas will be louder and will sound much better. The max SPL is a useful measure of how loud a speaker will go but you also need to temper it with some common sense, you rarely get something for nothing and if it's ¼ the price and roughly similar spec, some corners have been cut.

[AlecSp]

The shop Dawsons said "500W should be enough" that is why I mentioned it

Those speakers in the Tomman shop are rated at 129dB
https://www.thomann.de/gb/the_box_pa_15 ... cc5446097c

But there is a big big difference in price compared to the Yamaha DXR10 you mentioned

What do you think the difference between them are?

As has already been said, the "wattage" of a speaker is pointless to look at - what's important is the SPL, which is quoted at 1m from the speaker.

The Thomann speaker you link to is a 15" speaker, which is more of a disco speaker, really. Typically, you'll find that 12" or 10" speakers tend to do a far nicer job of reproducing vocals. 15" speakers add bottom end, which is superfluous to your situation. Also, if you look at them side by side, 15" speakers are *huge* compared with 10" speakers - this makes a massive difference for transport, plus even fitting them in some tight venues.

The difference you'll notice between cheap speakers and better ones is that the better ones will sound better - duh! They'll go louder more gracefully, and will tend to have a good controlled frequency response that is far nicer to listen to.

But in the end, don't buy based on what we say, or on what looks cheap - try and get to listen to some different speakers. I think you'll then realise what the benefits are from going more upmarket.

But, in the end, plenty of people make music using some pretty shonky gear. The most important thing will always be the talent and the material. But good talent deserves decent reproduction.

[Deleted User]

The Yamahas will be louder and will sound much better. The max SPL is a useful measure of how loud a speaker will go but you also need to temper it with some common sense, you rarely get something for nothing and if it's ¼ the price and roughly similar spec, some corners have been cut.

But that Yamaha is rated at 133dB thats not a lot more then the Thomman one so how can it be much louder? When you say sound much better how?

[Deleted User]

The Thomann speaker you link to is a 15" speaker, which is more of a disco speaker, really. Typically, you'll find that 12" or 10" speakers tend to do a far nicer job of reproducing vocals. 15" speakers add bottom end, which is superfluous to your situation. Also, if you look at them side by side, 15" speakers are *huge* compared with 10" speakers - this makes a massive difference for transport, plus even fitting them in some tight venues.

Well this is an interesting concept!

The small the size of the speaker the better the quality, would that be a good rule of thumb when buying?

[ef37a]

The Thomann speaker you link to is a 15" speaker, which is more of a disco speaker, really. Typically, you'll find that 12" or 10" speakers tend to do a far nicer job of reproducing vocals. 15" speakers add bottom end, which is superfluous to your situation. Also, if you look at them side by side, 15" speakers are *huge* compared with 10" speakers - this makes a massive difference for transport, plus even fitting them in some tight venues.

Well this is an interesting concept!

The small the size of the speaker the better the quality, would that be a good rule of thumb when buying?

I am a long time out of the PA game but the "band PA" industry seems to have re discovered the column speaker in the last three years or so!

I am sure the more expensive 15" units are better than those in the early disco days but back then the DJ was lost in a wooly mumble (that they knew not of the proximity effect and HP filters did not help!) . For speech and song repro we always used columns. They also have the advantage that their radiation pattern, within the size/frequency constraints, gives them a sensitivity advantage over single, large cones. Handy because WE did not have acess to cheap 500W pch power amps!

So, if you want the best voice quality I would look at a column system and pay as much as you can for it. Columns are also better at controlling acoustic feedback.

Dave.

[Drew Stephenson]

The Thomann speaker you link to is a 15" speaker, which is more of a disco speaker, really. Typically, you'll find that 12" or 10" speakers tend to do a far nicer job of reproducing vocals. 15" speakers add bottom end, which is superfluous to your situation. Also, if you look at them side by side, 15" speakers are *huge* compared with 10" speakers - this makes a massive difference for transport, plus even fitting them in some tight venues.

Well this is an interesting concept!

The small the size of the speaker the better the quality, would that be a good rule of thumb when buying?

It's about being fit for purpose. The advantage of a 15" woofer is generally the ability to produce lower frequencies. If the focus of your act is acoustic guitar and vocals you just don't need that part of the spectrum.
A 10" or 12" speaker will generally handle vocals better, and that's what 99% of your audience will be listening to.
As to volume, dB use a logarithmic scale; 133db will be about twice as loud as 127dB.

[Mike Stranks]

You said that you had a mixer.

Now you reference a Thomann package that includes a mixer...

I'm done here... I've wasted enough time with trolls recently...

[Hugh Robjohns]

But that Yamaha is rated at 133dB thats not a lot more then the Thomman one so how can it be much louder? When you say sound much better how?

A 3dB difference in SPL represents a doubling of acoustic power, and a 10dB difference is roughly a doubling of perceived loudness.

So the Yamaha has a lot more power behind it than the Thomann and will sound a lot louder despite the apparently small difference in the SPL values.

[Drew Stephenson]

A 3dB difference in SPL represents a doubling of acoustic power, and a 10dB difference is roughly a doubling of perceived loudness.

Apologies, I stand (well, sit actually) corrected. I blame insufficient coffee.

[Deleted User]

It's about being fit for purpose. The advantage of a 15" woofer is generally the ability to produce lower frequencies. If the focus of your act is acoustic guitar and vocals you just don't need that part of the spectrum.
A 10" or 12" speaker will generally handle vocals better, and that's what 99% of your audience will be listening to.
As to volume, dB use a logarithmic scale; 133db will be about twice as loud as 127dB.

Well if bigger speakers are better for lower notes then what kind of music/ songs are you thinking suites this speaker as you only mention a disco? This would kind of make sense because lower notes use more space and higher notes use less space to produce the sound, example are siring on your guitar.

But if your saying 10"-12" is best than I will go with that then

You said that you had a mixer.

Now you reference a Thomann package that includes a mixer...

I'm done here... I've wasted enough time with trolls recently...

Sir we have several mixers laying around hear.
That Thomann kit was something we looked at a long time ago when we looked at doing this project before. But that project was dropped and in the mean time we have picked up a few mixers

A 3dB difference in SPL represents a doubling of acoustic power, and a 10dB difference is roughly a doubling of perceived loudness.

So the Yamaha has a lot more power behind it than the Thomann and will sound a lot louder despite the apparently small difference in the SPL values.

As to volume, dB use a logarithmic scale; 133db will be about twice as loud as 127dB.

Again more interesting food for though only to muddy the waters though
So for as little as an extra say 10% amplification you can double your output requirements

Now this bit of the puzzle I can't get my head round at the moment!

This speaker hear for sale is rated at 96 dB and at 300 W
https://www.thomann.de/gb/behringer_b15 ... ve_pro.htm

But if I buy a pair of them will the power equate to 600W, will 96dB then become 192dB?

But as stated before its 15" so no good!

[Drew Stephenson]

This speaker hear for sale is rated at 96 dB and at 300 W
https://www.thomann.de/gb/behringer_b15 ... ve_pro.htm

But if I buy a pair of them will the power equate to 600W, will 96dB then become 192dB?

Think you're still misunderstanding things. As Hugh points out above (correcting my numbers), if you buy two speakers pushing out 96dB then you'll get a total output of 99dB (at a theoretical best).
Much, much less than one of the Yamaha units that Sam mentioned above.

[Deleted User]

Again more interesting food for though only to muddy the waters though
So for as little as an extra say 10% amplification you can double your output requirements

Now this bit of the puzzle I can't get my head round at the moment!

This speaker hear for sale is rated at 96 dB and at 300 W
https://www.thomann.de/gb/behringer_b15 ... ve_pro.htm

But if I buy a pair of them will the power equate to 600W, will 96dB then become 192dB?

But as stated before its 15" so no good!

Oh very well then

I was searching round for a pair of second hand speakers and I found these for sale
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PAIR-Behring ... SwX1Jcpwad

Looked them up for them new and this shop sell them on there own and not as a pair!
https://www.thomann.de/gb/behringer_b15 ... ve_pro.htm

But as stated before, they are 15" and the seller of this second hand pair says they where used for his disco, but he also states they would suite a live band

[Drew Stephenson]

Edit: sorry misread the specs.

Those are passive speakers, they need a separate amplifier to drive them so you're not comparing like with like.

[Deleted User]

Edit: sorry misread the specs.

Those are passive speakers, they need a separate amplifier to drive them so you're not comparing like with like.

Your right the listing dose say "Passive"
So I guess Passive means no amplification so no good!
Unless I was to buy an amplifier, but that amp I guess would need to match the output of the speakers

[Drew Stephenson]

Indeed, you're opening yourself up to another whole barrel of complication there.
Personally, I'd get a pair of 10" or 12" Yamahas. If that's out of the price range the Altos mentioned earlier in the thread will be very hard to beat for the cash.
If you suspect space is going to be really tight in your playing environments then it's worth looking at the column speaker article Hugh referenced above.
That's about as good a set of online advice as you're likely to get, really you'd need to get down to a shop and give a few things a listen or try with your own material - but we all understand that's not always possible.

[Sam Spoons]

What kind of gigs will you be doing? Open mics usually have a PA as do festivals and 'proper' music venues but pubs/bars will need you to bring your own.

[Deleted User]

Indeed, you're opening yourself up to another whole barrel of complication there.
Personally, I'd get a pair of 10" or 12" Yamahas. If that's out of the price range the Altos mentioned earlier in the thread will be very hard to beat for the cash.
If you suspect space is going to be really tight in your playing environments then it's worth looking at the column speaker article Hugh referenced above.
That's about as good a set of online advice as you're likely to get, really you'd need to get down to a shop and give a few things a listen or try with your own material - but we all understand that's not always possible.

To be honest something like this is going to have to be a second hand pair because if I need to upgraded then the speakers are going to be the first thing! And no point buying new because you have lost half your money when you come to sell them. And I may get them and say I don't like the sound quality so Im going to upgraded

I think Yamahas just over priced and you are just buying a name, but the Altos and the Behringers should be fine though

I don't think space is an issue though

I mean going to a shop to asking to try them when you know your going second hand is a bit cheeky really. Your in York have you been to see gear4music?

[Deleted User]

What kind of gigs will you be doing? Open mics usually have a PA as do festivals and 'proper' music venues but pubs/bars will need you to bring your own.

Yes that's what it will be to start out anyway
Pubs and clubs, so bring your own

[Sam Spoons]

So how much have you got to spend?

[Drew Stephenson]

I'd take a different approach if money was tight and buy one good unit new, then buy a second further down the line.
But that's just me and you can choose whatever approach you're comfortable with.

[Deleted User]

So how much have you got to spend?

Well I don't know to be honest, little as possible really

What do you recon to this listing, 2 pair speaker (can't find a link to a new set). Says they are 400W and then 250W??? makes no sense (but you get a mixer and cables included)

[Dave B]

I think Yamahas just over priced and you are just buying a name, but the Altos and the Behringers should be fine though

No, that's simply not correct. I have a collection of various active cabs and just last weekend did a listening test here. In reverse order :

1. Behringer B210D - I just use these for monitors. They are fine for that - arguably more than good enough. But I wouldn't want to put a band through them

2. Alto TX12 - Very nice, but very flattering. I use mine as a keyboard amp and it easily holds it's own against the guitars and only at 1/2 power. But it definitely has a boominess to it that can be annoying

3. EV ZLX12 - This is my 'B' rig and has served me well for vocals in decent sized bars / clubs. But when you put it against other, better speakers, not only are the upper mids a bit weak, but it sounds 'soft'

4. Yamaha DXR10 - the difference between these and all of the above is night and day - the sound arrives 'there' and everything is nicely balanced and focused.

Having checked what I had been told, it was almost comical how much better the DXRs were - they are definitely not just a name. Nip along to a music store and see / hear for yourself. I took a mate down to Andertons to do that and after he heard them, he couldn't face the alternatives as he knew that they weren't as good (he's a fellow gear freak - I should really point him to these parts).

If you think of it like cars, some might say that a Golf is overpriced compared to a Dacia or a Skoda. But once you drive it and feel just how much more planted it is - and when it doesn't break / go wrong for years on end - you suddenly realise that you paid for a proper bit of engineering. Yes, you paid more, but you paid once ....

[Deleted User]

I'd take a different approach if money was tight and buy one good unit new, then buy a second further down the line.
But that's just me and you can choose whatever approach you're comfortable with.

Yer but if you found your self getting bigger gigs then you would need to buy a larger set of speakers and you would use those speakers on the smaller jobs and the first new pair you bough would not get used any more