Help taming brightness/buzz of archtop guitar when releasing finger

[DC-Choppah]

I have a Peerless Monarch that has a quirk that I would like to adjust.

The problem is when releasing my finger from a note, the bright buzz sound is very noticeable. This is much louder of a buzz than on other guitars when releasing a finger. This is not fret buzz due to a bad setup. That has been adjusted. This is the resonant sound of the guitar body being very bright and picks up and amplifies that buzz sound as the finger is released.

The guitar has been setup with a new nut and frets and leveled by a Luthier and plays and feels great.

The guitar has a wooden floating bridge.

When my helper puts a finger on top of the string where it sits on the bridge and pushes down, the zinginess associated with a fret-hand finger release is greatly reduced. The zingy buzzy sound is reduced down to the normal amount I am used to on other guitars. I like the tone, but this reduces the sustain.

So it would seem that some adjustment to the bridge could cure the finger-release-zinginess problem.

It's like a momentary buzz that resonates the guitar as the finger comes off the fret.

I can also duplicate the buzz by plucking an open string and touching the string lightly with the pick. On this guitar. I can wake up a very loud buzz for a moment doing that. Other guitars (including hollow bodies I have) don't resonate that way. So I would like to cut that zingy-buzz down.

Does anyone know of this problem or how to address it?

Perhaps something under the feet of the wooden bridge?

[Sam Spoons]

Do you have round wound or flat wound strings on it? I have flat wounds on my arch top and, not surprisingly, I don't have that problem, nor on my gypsy jazz guitar which has Argentine strings (silver plated copper roundwound). Putting something under the bridge feet will probably kill the sustain but is easy to try.

[DC-Choppah]

Flat wounds.

I've never tried round wounds on this. I wonder if that will make the zinginess better or worse?

[DC-Choppah]

The zingy sounds happen on the unwound strings too. Especially B string just above the 12th fret.

Here is a little noodling around. First I make the zingy sound on purpose on the B string and then the D string so you can hear what I mean.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1lSy0v ... T6-8FhGhX1

Then I play a bit and you can hear when it happens sometimes.

This is recorded with the guitar unplugged with my portable stereo recorder 1' away from where I pick, with the mics in XY.

Zingy - see what I mean?

You can feel the guitar body resonate when it hits a strong zingy resonance. I would like to find a way to dampen this.

[Sam Spoons]

I can't access the file on the dodgy internet here, will try when I get home tomorrow.

Just a thought though, could it be the non sounding part of the string between the tailpiece and bridge resonating? Easy to try damping that. Both my archtop and gypsy guitar do so, just weave some fabric or thin foam through the strings.

[John Egan]

The zingy sounds happen on the unwound strings too. Especially B string just above the 12th fret.

Here is a little noodling around. First I make the zingy sound on purpose on the B string and then the D string so you can hear what I mean.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1lSy0v ... T6-8FhGhX1

Then I play a bit and you can hear when it happens sometimes.

This is recorded with the guitar unplugged with my portable stereo recorder 1' away from where I pick, with the mics in XY.

Zingy - see what I mean?

You can feel the guitar body resonate when it hits a strong zingy resonance. I would like to find a way to dampen this.

Is the break angle over the bridge steep enough? Sometimes a shallow break angle can produce unwanted resonance. What kind of tailpiece does the guitar have ? Is there any opportunity to increase the break angle ?
Regards, John

[DC-Choppah]

I can't access the file on the dodgy internet here, will try when I get home tomorrow.

Just a thought though, could it be the non sounding part of the string between the tailpiece and bridge resonating? Easy to try damping that. Both my archtop and gypsy guitar do so, just weave some fabric or thin foam through the strings.

Thanks for that.

I already have a piece of felt that I weave between the strings there to dampen that high pitched ringing from that effect.

[DC-Choppah]

Is the break angle over the bridge steep enough? Sometimes a shallow break angle can produce unwanted resonance. What kind of tailpiece does the guitar have ? Is there any opportunity to increase the break angle ?
Regards, John

You may be on to something.

Here are some photos.



https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkcTXoLsDqKlm2NgLSSmbyszjs_h



https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkcTXoLsDqKlm2L-mpTSBmrUIzzG



https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkcTXoLsDqKlm2E9tSY66q37-Nb_



https://1drv.ms/u/s!AkcTXoLsDqKlm2AUQocx47gB3hCu

It looks like the break angle is very shallow at the bridge.

Can you see a way to increase the break angle?

[John Egan]

It looks like the break angle is very shallow at the bridge.

Can you see a way to increase the break angle?

Unfortunately, I can't access the photos.

Two things spring to mind :
Is it possible to wrap the strings under the tailpiece bar ? I realise that this might not be possible, depending on the design, but it's worth mentioning.
How much relief do you have in the neck ? Are you able to reduce the relief and then raise the action slightly to increase the break angle ?
Is the hinge on the tailpiece adjustable for angle ? This is probably unlikely.

Maybe the experienced luthiers here could make better suggestions.

Regards, John

[Hugh Robjohns]

Unfortunately, I can't access the photos.

I've inserted them directly into the post above.

H

[Sam Spoons]

It doesn't look possible to increase the break angle though it doesn't look too shallow to me TBH. WRT passing under the tailpiece bar with a floating tailpiece that would make no difference other than to make the tailpiece sit higher above the body but is not possible with the design. of tailpiece on this guitar anyway.

Nice looking guitar BTW

edit :- I still can't access the audio file BTW

[John Egan]

Thanks for the help with the photos, Hugh.

As Sam Said, the break angle looks OK to me. What gauge strings are you using ? I am trying to think of ways to increase downward pressure on the bridge.
It is a nice looking guitar and sounds good too.
Regards, John

[DC-Choppah]

What gauge strings are you using ?

11's

http://www.daddario.com/DADProductDetai ... ght__11_50

I would certainly consider changing string type and gauge if that would help. I like the tone of heavier strings and wold consider that next if it might help with the zingies.

Heavier strings = more tension right? Pushing down harder on the bridge? I am used to playing 11's or 12's.

[John Egan]

What gauge strings are you using ?

11's

http://www.daddario.com/DADProductDetai ... ght__11_50

I would certainly consider changing string type and gauge if that would help. I like the tone of heavier strings and wold consider that next if it might help with the zingies.

Heavier strings = more tension right? Pushing down harder on the bridge? I am used to playing 11's or 12's.

I would have thought that 11s or 12s were quite heavy enough to put the right pressure on the bridge.
You said that a luthier had made and fitted a new nut for you, so I would turn my attention to the bridge itself. Is there anything unusual about it. When removed does it rattle or is it cracked. Are the adjusters secure.
I'm running out of things to suggest now - sorry.
Regards, John

[DC-Choppah]

You said that a luthier had made and fitted a new nut for you, so I would turn my attention to the bridge itself. Is there anything unusual about it. When removed does it rattle or is it cracked. Are the adjusters secure.

Well, the bridge is glued to the guitar! I can't get it off. Could that be an issue?

[Sam Spoons]

Well, it's very unusual (I've never encountered it) but shouldn't be causing the issue you have......

[John Egan]

You said that a luthier had made and fitted a new nut for you, so I would turn my attention to the bridge itself. Is there anything unusual about it. When removed does it rattle or is it cracked. Are the adjusters secure.

Well, the bridge is glued to the guitar! I can't get it off. Could that be an issue?

I can't see why it should cause a problem, although I expected the bridge would be a floating one. Anyway, does the top of the bridge look look OK - nothing loose or rattly, as far as you can see ? And the height adjusters ?
Regards, John

[zenguitar]

OK, this is a long shot, but the symptoms are reminiscent of a problem that would sometimes appear in early shallow drilled Strat trem blocks.

In the Strat, the length of string inside the trem block could vibrate in sympathy and on occasion would buzz against the sides of the hole. That's why Leo revised the design to drill the trem block so that the ball ends were deeper inside.

Looking at your photos, I see that the tailpiece has a deep section between the front edge and the string retainer. And that leaves a row of 6 deep drilled holes. Looking at the photo taken from the endpin you can see that the ball ends are all in a straight line. It's harder to tell from the other photos, but it appears that the strings exit the tailpiece in a straight line as well. However, the top of the bridge and saddle isn't flat, it has a radius. That means that each string is coming out of the tailpiece at a slightly different angle, and that might be enough to bring one or more of the strings close enough to buzz against the sides of the holes through the tailpiece.

The best way to check is to get 3 wooden cocktail sticks or toothpicks. Cut them in half so you have 6 short sticks with pointed ends. Then push one in each of the exit holes from the tailpiece so you wedge the string against the hole.

If that does fix the buzz, the fix is to remove the tailpiece and re-drill the holes with a slightly larger drill bit.

As I say, it's a long shot. But it is a known cause of hard to trace buzzing.

Andy

[Sam Spoons]

Just a thought WRT the glued on bridge, it may just be double sided tape holding it there? Fairly easy to remove if it is and you ever need to adjust the intonation (like when you put the 12s on it.....)

[John Egan]

Thanks for that tip. Andy. It's one I haven't heard of, and certainly worth tucking away for future reference. I hope it sorts out the problem for the OP.
Regards, John

[DC-Choppah]

OK, this is a long shot, but the symptoms are reminiscent of a problem that would sometimes appear in early shallow drilled Strat trem blocks.

In the Strat, the length of string inside the trem block could vibrate in sympathy and on occasion would buzz against the sides of the hole. That's why Leo revised the design to drill the trem block so that the ball ends were deeper inside.

Looking at your photos, I see that the tailpiece has a deep section between the front edge and the string retainer. And that leaves a row of 6 deep drilled holes. Looking at the photo taken from the endpin you can see that the ball ends are all in a straight line. It's harder to tell from the other photos, but it appears that the strings exit the tailpiece in a straight line as well. However, the top of the bridge and saddle isn't flat, it has a radius. That means that each string is coming out of the tailpiece at a slightly different angle, and that might be enough to bring one or more of the strings close enough to buzz against the sides of the holes through the tailpiece.

The best way to check is to get 3 wooden cocktail sticks or toothpicks. Cut them in half so you have 6 short sticks with pointed ends. Then push one in each of the exit holes from the tailpiece so you wedge the string against the hole.

If that does fix the buzz, the fix is to remove the tailpiece and re-drill the holes with a slightly larger drill bit.

As I say, it's a long shot. But it is a known cause of hard to trace buzzing.

Andy

I tried this. Toothpicks jammed in there. No effect.

[DC-Choppah]

You said that a luthier had made and fitted a new nut for you, so I would turn my attention to the bridge itself. Is there anything unusual about it. When removed does it rattle or is it cracked. Are the adjusters secure.

Well, the bridge is glued to the guitar! I can't get it off. Could that be an issue?

I can't see why it should cause a problem, although I expected the bridge would be a floating one. Anyway, does the top of the bridge look look OK - nothing loose or rattly, as far as you can see ? And the height adjusters ?
Regards, John

OK, some progress.

I got the bridge off. Just some thin white double sticky tape under there.

Nothing vibrating on the bridge. I can move the bridge around now too. No change.

I am now down to just the B string on the guitar. I have the bridge up high to eliminate any possibility of fret buzz. I have toothpick stuck in the hole where the B string goes into the tail per Zen.

When I fret the 12th fret (octave B) and release the way I would like to play I get a buzz UNLESS I fret the note just behind the fret, basically ON the fret. As I move back in the fret in a matter of just a fraction of a centimeter the release turns into a loud body resonant buzz.

I can stick my ear near the F holes and the buzz is very loud INSIDE of the guitar like a resonance.

I see there is a post (like on a violin) in there too. It is right under where the bridge sits and connects the front sound board to the back of the guitar.

My sense is that as the string lifts from the fret there is a moment when I can FEEL the string vibrate and buzz as it makes this sound. The guitar resonates with it. Zingy!

When playing, any time I slide from one fret DOWN to the next I pass through that buzz sound as the same thing happens, namely releasing the string from a fret as my finger is at the rear of the fret. I am not releasing from the string but as I cross down to the lower fret I get the momentary buzz.

BUT sliding up a fret it does not do buzz because you never release at the rear of the fret.

[zenguitar]

I did say it was a long shot. But at least you've eliminated it as a possibility.

Have just had a listen to your recording. That section at the beginning where you are testing individual notes makes the buzz very clear. As you release slowly it's almost as if your fingertip then acts as the fret and the string is buzzing against the top of the real fret.

Do you have really hard callouses on your fretting hand?

Andy

[DC-Choppah]

I did say it was a long shot. But at least you've eliminated it as a possibility.

Have just had a listen to your recording. That section at the beginning where you are testing individual notes makes the buzz very clear. As you release slowly it's almost as if your fingertip then acts as the fret and the string is buzzing against the top of the real fret.

Do you have really hard callouses on your fretting hand?

Andy

Not at all. I use a soft touch and learned that long ago.

The zingy sound is generated as the string is 'leaving' the fret. Whatever the difference is between being right behind the fret vs being in the middle, in how the string comes off the fret is what makes the difference. That same effect happens on other guitars too, but with this one, that buzz on release wakes up a resonance that vibrates inside the guitar.

This reads through to the amp too.

[zenguitar]

It is looking like the resonance is emphasising what would normally be a subtle buzz as you lift off the fret. It could be that it is an inherent quality of the guitar due to the materials used and construction.

That sound post really is very unusual. I've just double checked Robert Benedetto's book and there are no references whatsoever to a sound post in any of his guitars or the many he repaired/restored from other great makers. And I've never seen one on a guitar myself.

I can't think of any other possible things to check

Andy