What is the Best Place for Studying Sound Engineering?

[PegStuchPrultGebdrangaFeng]

Hello All Sounders!

I really have to choose quickly what is the best place for learning Sound Enineering.

I need great place where I can study good rock, alternative, academical classic, experimental music.
That you could better understand what I am - I'll give you the list of bands I like: Audioslave (Chris Kornel), Linkin Park, Puddle of Mudd, Coldplay, Mogwai, Sigur Ros, Muse... etc.
Well, in general I like Great Melodic Alternative Music with intersting FX's and with own great style!

I did some research and stopped on these variants:

1. http://www.mi.edu/Majors/Audio-Engineering/7.aspx
2. http://www.sae-la.com/courses.php?course=ATP
3. http://www.sae-atl.com/courses.htm
4. http://www.saeny.com/courses.htm

and may be this - http://www.recordwk.dircon.co.uk/ (but pictures from the site doesn't impress me at all - looks like it's somewhere in the dark and wet basement - ha-ha)

...but still don't know what is better...

I my opinion MI is the best place (because it's in one of the Music Centeres of the World - Hollywood), but on the other hand they don't have in program "Audio in Multimedia and Games" which SAE has.

How to be?

By the way, are those SAE sites have got almost the same program or not? And as I see they're costs are the same, isn't it?

May be someone already knows that places and could tell my what is the most interesting and best place for living, studying and for other things.

I think that New Yorke is really dirty (in all meanings) place and take it as the last variant. But may be I am wrong.

Id' like to have all the sound Engineering program in my hands. I mean the program should contain:
1. Studio Sound
2. Live Sound
3. Sound for Film and TV
4. Sampling
5. Studio creation
6. Music Business
and other stuff! I need the FULLEST PROGRAM!

May be some of you did courses (finished institute or college as Sound Engineer) less expensive but with the same program quality or even with better program - go on, tell it here!

So, if anybody know better places - please give me link or tell me! That would be halpfull for everybody!

P.S.: I AM IN A BIG HURRY, IN 1-2 DAYS I SHOULD ALREADY CHOOSE SOMETHING AND GO STRAIGHT AWAY(you understand that I also need visa and other papers - if you know what I need to get in - please tell me)! PLEASE BE QUICK, GUYS!

Thanks for Helpers Very Much!

[* User requested deletion 2 *]

This has got to be a wind up.

[narcoman]

This has got to be a wind up.

sadly it probably isnt!
The mad fool.... do some people not listen?

ah well..... i've some more souls to destroy....

[JamesSimpson]

I know the few immediate posters can't have seemed like much help. But i wouldnt advise doing any of those courses you mentioned. Better to create yourself your own job by getting out there and recording bands yourself. Use the money you earn (if any) to buy better gear.

Do this and read sound on sound, buy a subscription if you dont already have one. You will learn far more from this than most lecturers on a course can explain to you infront of a class of 20 or more.

[A Non O Miss]

I went to school for business. I learned most everything taught by these music schools and courses myself, through books and trial and error and such. Someone I know who attended a school for music told me that I could teach at one of these places, and be the best teacher there

With the business background I am much better diversified to attack this ruthless industry and that puts me even further ahead. Also with the lack of formal training I feel I am not bound or constrained by any rules, and with music, IMHO, being art first, it is quite helpful in really fn ish up.

Go if you must, but I would listen to the others here and at least reconsider your decision. Think more of what happens when you finish? And where you will be and what options you will have. Then weigh everything out and figure out what is the best route.

[PegStuchPrultGebdrangaFeng]

James, but how will I record someone if I've got no experience at all ('ve got some my 3 albums made myself, but there are mistakes which I can't correct myself - but I hear them and have tried a lot of variants to erase them - doesn't wok)?

Experience is coming when you work with someone or listen to someone.

And does that courses really BAD?

I thought that 20 people (is there so many people in a group actually?!) is listening to the lecture and then going alone or with teacher to the studio and there work together one by one. Or am I wrong? What 20 people going together in one studio and study there at the same time - I think it's impossible!

Anyway, I need to choose something quickly! Where to Study?
PLEASE HELP ME, SOUND ENGINEER PEOPLE!

Any suggestions else?

P.S.: How do I buy (is there free one?) the subscription? And what is that for?

With BIG Thanks to Helpers!

[PegStuchPrultGebdrangaFeng]

A Non O' Miss, so you went to Business School, right?

That means that you have Music Business education, right? Or I didn't understood you.

I was thinking also about Music Business Institute - is that right?

And you have told that some of your friend went to Music school (college or whatever) - what school was it? And why didn't he (she) like it? Didi you ask? May be he (she) had bad connections with teacher or had wasted their time and just got dissapoited - that's it!(?)

I am an artist, but BOOKS ARE NOT TALKING! They only give you info! They can't teach your ears how to hear (if you understand what I mean). Because when you work with someone how's much better then you - you grow up! To work with, to study from someone who can hear all the mistakes - and not only hear them , but know how to correct! - that's what is the most important thing I think!

It's great conversation, guys!

Thanks a lot!

But who else have got any toughts?

With GREATEST THANKS to Helpers!

[wave1]

Don't know where you are based, but here in the UK many colleges and universities do music technology courses with a bit of business thrown in. Maybe there's something locally?

[ken long]

P.S.: I AM IN A BIG HURRY, IN 1-2 DAYS I SHOULD ALREADY CHOOSE SOMETHING AND GO STRAIGHT AWAY(you understand that I also need visa and other papers - if you know what I need to get in - please tell me)! PLEASE BE QUICK, GUYS!

If you don't have a US visa yet and you absolutely need to leave in 1-2 days, you can scratch LA, Atlanta and NY off your list.

ken

[A Non O Miss]

A Non O' Miss, so you went to Business School, right?

That means that you have Music Business education, right? Or I didn't understood you.

No I went to a general university and took a general business degree that covered strictly BUSINESS! Broad, but expansive.

I never, ever went to school for anything to do with music. I learned all the music stuff MYSELF, with the help of a friend or two and many many books as well as great trade journals such as SOS and extensive RESEARCH. Obviously music business is itself entirely different than general business, but so is any specific industry. With a broad knowledge of business it gives you flexibility, and if by chance I happen not to be in music the rest of my life then I have much more transparent skills, and transferable education.

I have always found that specific skills are better learned actually within the industry working, or/as well on your own, educating yourself by trial and error, practice, books etc. etc., especially in the case of music, IMHO.

[Steve Hill]

Forget colleges. You need to start working as a tea boy in a major studio like Abbey Road and learn by working with experts who know what they are doing.

Unfortunately you're about 30 years too late. There are no jobs with the major studios, and the industry is dying on its feet.

Take up plumbing. It's fun, you meet people, you can work your own hours, and the pay is good.

[Hugh Robjohns]

All of the courses you have highlighted are going to cost a shed load of money, and to make a decision on that kind of spend in two days, without any research or further exploration on your part is sheer madness. Don't do it.

I would suggest that you need to investigate the whole music tech educuation market far more thoroughly. Understand what you are likely to get from these courses -- amd what you won't get -- and how that might then help you to move into employment (or whatever it is you plan to do next).

Different colleges have very different levels of equipment, very varied lecturing staff, and very variable numbers in lecture sessions and practical studio work. Some colleges restrict hands on studio time too.

The little experience I have of SAE across the world is that the courses vary in competence enormously. I have had to help some SAE graduates whose basic technical knowledge and practical skilss were shockingly poor. A few have been quite impressive -- but interestingly, those were all very keen outside the course, long time readers of SOS and other relevant mags, had their own gear, were always recording themselves and others to gain experience, etc. Very driven and self motivated with inquiring minds and persistance.

I wish you luck, but can't help thinking you could live to regret this hasty decision...

hugh

[hollowsun]

[narcoman]

what is being said here is right on.

I KNOW you don't want to hear it - but (and I'm sure you won't - thousands every year don't and nearly all regret it) you would do well to listen. Don't do one of these courses. There are something like 4000 "graduates" a year in the UK alone chasing zero jobs. It isn't a "job" industry. All the jobs are taken up with experienced souls - you cannot get into this business with a Music Tech course qualification, you won't even learn much about recording. It isn't rocket science. Read some books. Experiment. Ask questions. Spend 10 years learning and voila - you can record.

Don't waste your money or your time. There are no jobs in music, only freelance wok. And there isn't much of that. If you're an artist - then stop recording. Be an artist.

I think we're all a little bored of giving the same advice hundreds of times over to young misguided music enthusiasts - it is well meant !! So I can only say - DO NOT DO THIS. You WILL regret it.

There are a handful of us here who earn money full time recording. You won't find anyone who does this full time endorsing any courses. Some around here say that's because we are looking after our own interests... this is not true.

None of the serious earners in these forums have anything to fear from ANY music tech graduates - quite simply because this is an experience game along with "who do you know" . Music tech graduates have NO contacts and no experience. I employ people. None of them graduates in ANYTHING connected to music. Lawyers and electronics people !! Oh - and me - Maths!!

[hollowsun]

only freelance wok.

You're likely to earn more money that way - every Chinese take-away and restaurant needs a freelance wok!!!

But no bugger needs a (ahem) 'qualified' music tech professional! What some DO want, however, is someone who can deliver on budget and on time ... not some kid with a certificate that says he can use ProTools ... they are ten (or more) a penny!

Seriously... take heed to narco's (and others' here) words. There are precious few 'jobs' to be had in this industry now, if any. You will - at best - be chasing one short-term thing after another ... assuming, that is, you have an address book full of contacts and you have experience and track record to back it up and are prepared to slum it and travel where the work is. Having a 'music tech degree' will not have you lounging around in a plush London or LA studio with your feet up on an SSL desk wondering which big name artist you will record that day. Those days are over - you will be mostly down the job-centre wondering which minimum wage job appeals the most!

And narco is also correct - the advice being given is not coming from a clique of old fogeys looking after their jobs/interests because even some of us old fogeys sometimes have trouble putting food on the table... decades of proven experience and STILL having trouble securing work sometimes!!

Furthermore, I am often getting called in to rescue jobs that were done on the cheap by young music tech (ahem) 'graduates' who simply couldn't do the job properly. The standard of the work they turned in on a professional budget is, quite frankly, shocking.

That said, I will, however, temper that by saying that I have also worked with some fabulous young talent ... but none of them went to any of these courses - they got a 'proper' degree and pursued the music thing in their spare time with something to fall back on should the need arise ... but they're making their way in the biz through experience and attitude and contacts and ability ... NOT a piece of paper (see my toilet roll spoof above!).

As Steve Hill says above - the industry is dying on its feet. What few 'pro' studios that still exist are closing (and what small, niche studios that eke out a living locally can't afford to employ anyone and are usually running at a loss), the record companies are in turmoil, major music shops are going into liquidation, as did even one of the UK's oldest and most reputable courses recently - and so on. Draw your own conclusions. It's grim out there.

But there ARE 'opportunities' out there for the enterprising and determined - there just aren't any 'jobs' to speak of. It's up to you to make your own opportunities. What's important to remember is that a course is not necessarily going to help. Sure - you may learn a few things but it just isn't going to set you up for a 'career', far from it.

In the meantime, while you are dutifully attending classes and burning your way through your money (or your parents' money), some kid is out there schlepping it doing live PA work, recording bands in his little home studio, being a runner for some post-pro facility, doing some sample editing grunt work, beta testing for a manufacturer or whatever - probably for peanuts ... or nothing. But he is gaining contacts and getting experience and building some kind of portfolio whilst also recording his own stuff and putting it about. THAT kid is further up the food chain and is going to stand a FAR better chance of getting work than any of the 4,000 or more (ahem) 'graduates' that have just finished their courses.

I think enough advice has been offered here. It's your call now.

[PegStuchPrultGebdrangaFeng]

So, as I understood to do this courses mean waste my time.
BUT!

Where do I take experiance from? I've got no friends who could help. And in exact mix at exact time not even any of the boook in this world will help me - it's impossible! By the way - 've tried to read books and still do, but when I turn to my mix's books doesn't help at all...

And WHAT YOUR SUGGESTIONS WILL BE, GUYS? What do I have to do? Where to go?

I don't think if I would go to the major studio and say : "Hello! I am a very nice guy! Could I please be here a small helper (and thinking inside - "may be to work after")?"
I think people will just lough at me!

And also you say that "

few 'pro' studios that still exist are closing...major music shops are going into liquidation,

" - is that so? And which one? I didn't know about such a bad situation. Why is that happening? What? Too many Sound Engineers because of that courses above or what?

Also - How people that finish SAE or whatever do not know simple things (as you wrote)? What they do there then? I think people who teach then really experienced, aren't they? And if you would like to know something you will ask teacher and he will tell you what to do. Why SAE (and some other institutes) has got so BAD reputation?

WHAT DO I HAVE TO DO IN THIS SITUATION?
I UNDERSTAND THAT PAPER WILL NOT GIVED ME ANY POWER, BUT WHERE FROM SHOULD I TAKE EXPERIENCE THEN?
WHERE TO GO? WHAT TO DO?
WHO TO ASK?

P.S.:
Of course I am an artist at first. I am just finished musical college. But I want to do my onw music as I hear it (some of Sound Engineers have worked upon my mix's - and I didn't like their ears and work at all!)!
And that's why I need to learn Sound Engineering.

Dear Guys, Please give me some more advises!
I am Dying under the Pressure!

P.S.: My minds is getting clear. Does anyone have got a job (good one) in Musical industry? How? When? With help of who?

VERY HUGE THANKS TO YOU, GUYS-HELPERS! THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!

[Steve Hill]

If you are an artist first, don't waste your life and money learning to be a sound engineer just because you don't like the work of one or two sound engineers.

Find better sound engineers. There are many to choose from.

I suggest, if you have some funds, you find a producer for your project who understands you work and what you are trying to achieve: it would be his job to turn your vision into a reality, and get the right team of people involved to make it happen.

You could also link to some of your tracks in the My Sound Files area of this site (under Resources) and a number of us would be happy to give some constructive comments.

[James Perrett]

If you want to hear what effects sound like then you could try looking at Dave Moulton's Golden Ears CD's but otherwise I would follow Steve's advice to post a few samples up and link to them in the sound files forum and find people to work with who understand your needs.

When I started recording bands I had only ever seen the inside of a recording studio by looking at pictures in magazines and I didn't know anyone else into recording. I just learned from my early mistakes and gradually got better. Having said that, I would still recommend spending a few days recording in a decent studio as I've always learned a great deal from watching other people work. I've also learned a great deal from watching other engineers use the gear I have to produce sounds that I had never thought of.

Cheers

James.

[Handlestash]

Dude,

I did a music tech course 10 years ago. It was one academic year long and I did it purely because I wanted to learn more about the process.
However, 10 years ago it was pretty expensive to get a home studio together and quite a few studios were still using tape so it all still had an aura of witchcraft.
Today it's a totally different bucket of hamsters but the college I attended is so big now it's advertising on MTV! And every year when the adverts come on I think to myself... you f**kers, taking advantage of kids like that. Also the course is hugely expensive now. When I did it it was a couple of hundred quid.
It's a racket my man. Keep away.
Stay on the forum. Ask stupid questions. Buy the mag. Buy a computer. Record your mates. Record some amature bands you like. Practice practice practice.
Look back at the ark of my posts since I joined the forum.
I knew a little coming in but I have learned more in the last 6 months that I did in the previous 3 years.
Do a business course instead.

[PegStuchPrultGebdrangaFeng]

Did you do only Business course or MUSICAL BUSINESS COURSE?

And where, when, how much money did you spent? And what is the best place fro studying MUSICAL BUSINESS COURSE?

Agian, PEOPLE!
I need the right place to study!
Exactly what I mean - in eaqch country different Sound Engineering "rules". Some countries good in Alternative (usa), Rock (uk), Pop (uk,usa), Electro (Amsterdam).

What is the best place (France, uk, usa, germany, africa, south place... ) for learning Academical Classik , Alternative, Rock, Experemental... Sound Engineering?

Is there any different types of mixeing you know (working now and doing best stuff)?
Is there Greates Sound Enginers you know?
Please tell me, if you can. Put links here, please.
I've tried to search some greatest (like Linkin Park) Sound Engineers, but I couldn't find it on net.

Do you have any thoughts?

If I would have ANYone to learn from - I would be already a Sound Enginer, BUT! I don't have any frinds in that industry.
And I'd like to learn everything from someone - doesn't matter: Institute, College, Guys in the studio or just in the old and wet, dirty basement - JUST PLEASE, TELL ME (if you know) - WHERE, WHEN, WITH WHO?

With Good Regards to Helping People!

[Steve Hill]

The most highly regarded course in the UK.

Most graduates get jobs in the industry.

You need to be a (very) competent musician to get in. They have some open days coming up in September/October.

[narcoman]

The most highly regarded course in the UK.

Most graduates get jobs in the industry.

You need to be a (very) competent musician to get in. They have some open days coming up in September/October.

Lets increase that - those graduates get the ONLY jobs in the industry.

There isn't really a best or worst place (apart from the only proper academic institute is the one mentioned by Steve). This isnt something you can be taught completely. Obviously some eduction is necessary - but by and large - you've either got it or you haven't. You need to be a people person, you need to be a diplomat, you need to be a music person and have a technical mind. None of the science is difficult - but it can take years to master .....

I have no technical training in the music recording - but my science is probably stronger than most, from a previous and very different career.

My music background is completely self taught . I can read music well. I play, well I guess. I can repair most issued in the studio with a soldering iron and basic tools.

what I'm saying is - teach yourself whilst doing something you can fall back on in the very likely event that you will not be able to earn serious money from music or recording.

[hollowsun]

Most graduates get jobs in the industry.

So that that isn't quoted out of context...

Most graduates OF THAT PARTICULAR course get jobs in the industry.

[The Red Bladder]

1. The music business is not dying on its feet, the CD is! The CD is yesterday's product and the labels are yesterday's businesses. Somebody really aught to tell them!

2. The music business is expanding and is crying out for key skills. Studio engineer is not one of them!

3. Get a skill that we need. IT engineer. DVD authoring specialist (I could get you a job in that tomorrow, if you had the skills and background). Electrical and electronics engineer. Lighting programmer. Even something as mundane as site electrician. Then of course there are all the general qualifications that have major applications in the music business, like lawyer, accountant, security technician, structural engineer, shipping clerk, sales, etc.

4. Keep as far away from the likes of the SAE as possible!

[ken long]

Then of course there are all the general qualifications that have major applications in the music business, like lawyer, accountant, security technician, structural engineer, shipping clerk, sales, etc.

Data entry for an accountancy firm working for lawyers who represent security technicians and structural engineers based in a building situated near a commercial recording studio.



ken