New interface, or Behringer ADA8000?

[Arpangel]

I think I may be throwing the baby out with the bath water here after going ITB.
Am I stupid or What? I already have a Behringer mixer with USB, it's as I see it, an ADA82000 without the multitrack capability, as it's only stereo USB. But it has 10mic/line inputs and sounds good! the ADA82000 has analogue inputs that have to be converted anyway so.....
I know it means going back to a mixer, but it's sitting in my basement doing nothing, and I don't have to spend "any" money.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Aside from the fact that you'd be limited to recording no more than two mono sources at a time, or a single stereo source (or a fixed stereo mix) -- which may well work perfectly well in your situation -- I seem to recall that some people have had issues with a low-level whine noises from the Behringer USB mixers, so it would be worth checking that's not an issue.

It's also possible, depending on the exact model, that the mixer uses 16-bit converters so you may have to be careful about headroom margins when recording.

Plus, if you plan to run the Behringer mixer alongside your existing interface to supplement its input count, there's the added complication of running two USB devices simultaneously under your operating system.

H

[Arpangel]

Aside from the fact that you'd be limited to recording no more than two mono sources at a time, or a single stereo source (or a fixed stereo mix) -- which may well work perfectly well in your situation -- I seem to recall that some people have had issues with a low-level whine noises from the Behringer USB mixers, so it would be worth checking that's not an issue.

It's also possible, depending on the exact model, that the mixer uses 16-bit converters so you may have to be careful about headroom margins when recording.

Plus, if you plan to run the Behringer mixer alongside your existing interface to supplement its input count, there's the added complication of running two USB devices simultaneously under your operating system.

H

All points taken, I've only ever recorded a maximum of 6 seperate tracks on any session here, all microphones if that's going on, when recording on my own I never use more than one stereo input, my mixer has always functioned like a patch bay with faders, and an input expander. Also, I'm running into other problems going ITB, FX routing isn't ideal, my FX are in-line with my synths right now, because of a lack of inputs, I have to keep a keen eye on levels, and I can't use my Easel on maximum output, which is essential if you overdrive it or use internal feedback, it's all complicated, and very inflexible, I didn't realise these things earlier, they've only just surfaced after a session yesterday.

[Terrible.dee]

I'm ITB and liking it, no mixer withdrawal so far, don't miss it at all, and I'm enjoying the simpler, and cleaner (audio) monitoring set-up, and the extra space!
However, there's no doubt I could do with just a few more inputs, my Motu has 8, but 12 would be ideal. I could either go to great expense and get one of the new Motu 16 input jobs, or go the Arpangel cheap skate route and get a Behringer ADA2000, just a few words of guidance needed here to point me in the right direction.

Throughout the history of the ADA8000 being available, I've seen the same thing over and over again...

"Y'know what? This sounds FINE! If it sounds a little different than "...." it certainly doesn't sound WORSE."

The ADA8000 is one of the best deals in audio. It's such a good deal that people can't accept that it's true sometimes. But I've seen it used by people for whom budget is not a problem, and who do this for a living, in fact, that's where I've seen it used more often. Pros trust their ears.

I'm no Berrigner fan, quite the opposite, I consider them to be evil. The fact that they no longer make this product new, however, makes me feel a little less guilty in approving it.

I'm not endorsing something they can currently earn profit from.....bah! I still hate saying anything good about them.....but truth be told, yes, the ADA8000 is FINE as an ADAT expander.

[Arpangel]

I'm ITB and liking it, no mixer withdrawal so far, don't miss it at all, and I'm enjoying the simpler, and cleaner (audio) monitoring set-up, and the extra space!
However, there's no doubt I could do with just a few more inputs, my Motu has 8, but 12 would be ideal. I could either go to great expense and get one of the new Motu 16 input jobs, or go the Arpangel cheap skate route and get a Behringer ADA2000, just a few words of guidance needed here to point me in the right direction.

Throughout the history of the ADA8000 being available, I've seen the same thing over and over again...

"Y'know what? This sounds FINE! If it sounds a little different than "...." it certainly doesn't sound WORSE."

The ADA8000 is one of the best deals in audio. It's such a good deal that people can't accept that it's true sometimes. But I've seen it used by people for whom budget is not a problem, and who do this for a living, in fact, that's where I've seen it used more often. Pros trust their ears.

I'm no Berrigner fan, quite the opposite, I consider them to be evil. The fact that they no longer make this product new, however, makes me feel a little less guilty in approving it.

I'm not endorsing something they can currently earn profit from.....bah! I still hate saying anything good about them.....but truth be told, yes, the ADA8000 is FINE as an ADAT expander.

I like the sound of my Behringer mixer, some people think I'm deaf, or mad, they can think that fine, but I'm happy and I haven't spent big bucks. I'm sure the ADA82000 is fine too.
I'm one of those guys who if I was billionaire, I don't like spending money for no reason, I'm truly with Warren Buffet here.

[Hugh Robjohns]

This is all about a definition of what's 'fine' for a specific task, and that's obviously going to vary massively with expectations, experience, and requirements.

There's absolutely no doubt that the ADA8200 -- which replaced the ADA8000 -- represents extremely good value for money because you get a lot of facilities in a very compact space, it does what it says on the box, and it doesn't cost very much. Yay!

It's also easily demonstrable that the ADA8200 is a worthwhile step up from the ADA8000 in terms of its technical performance and sound quality. And it's technical performance is certainly better than a lot of the semi-pro equipment I cut my teeth on in the 70s and 80s.

So, if you want to use it to feed a bunch of synths into the spare ADAT port of an interface, it'll get the job done very cost-effectively and its limitations won't be revealed to any significant or relevant extent.

However, if you're recording a classical concert and need to run a bunch of high-end mics with 60dB gain into a high-end recording chain it's weaknesses are definitely going to start to show. I don't think anyone would be surprised at that, given the price differential, but headroom, distortion, noise, and jitter artefacts can all become audible* and all fall well short of the technical and audible performance of any high-end preamp.

So, there's 'fine' as in adequate, and there's 'fine' as in exquisite... and they are very different things!

Budget equipment is what it is -- and is entirely appropriate in a great many situations. But let's not confuse convenience with quality. Headroom, distortion, noise, and jitter may not matter too much in some situations, but they most certainly do in others -- and avoiding those kinds of problems is both difficult and expensive -- and there's no way around that.

*I was surprised to find an ADA8000 in a BBC OB truck a few years back. 'Da Managment' had had one installed because it was cheaper than any other 8-channel mic pre and they needed the extra channels... But it really wasn't difficult in a blind listening test to identify which mics were routed through the ADA and which through the SSL console!

[cyrano.mac]

There's no mystery to ADDA's. Nobody's ever been able to hear it sound differently from, say an Apogee, in a blind listening test.

The ADA8000 is often accused of being a rip-off of an RME unit. That's not really a surprise, as the ADA8000's implementation for the ADDA is a copy of the chip manufacturer's application note. The design itself was handled by RME's engineering division. That includes PSU and board design. Mic pres are the usual, classic suspects. Behringer like.

I don't know who handled the ADA8200. Could be Phonic in Taiwan, as they sold a limited quantity of these under their own label. Presumably to get service data.

That's Behringer's way of operating these days. First couple of production runs are handled by a few trusted parties. If the sales take off, Behringer's massive factories take over.

The known problems with older ADA8000 nearly all reside in the PSU. It's amply powered, but it gets too hot. Especially in 120VAC countries and in racked units. Simple to repair. I've seen a few dozens of those going across my work bench. None of them had an ADDA failure. Only one has a blown buffering opamp. That one's still on my bench. That's a very good score, compared to MOTU, fi.

MOTU's tend to go unreliable when older than 10 years or so. Hard to troubleshoot. And even harder to repair. OTOH, MOTU offers exchange repair for a nominal sum. The last one I sent in, was 175€ to get a refurbished, or even new unit. But that's limited to around 10-12 years. After that, the unit is considered obsolete...

I haven't had any Presonus fail, but we only have three of those in use. Yet, they're all older than ten years...

Let's face it, all ADDA's are equal, cause they all have the same chips (or at least from a few different chip manufacturers). There are differences in the analog part, but they're so minute it's very hard to tell which one is better.

Hec, for the sake of joking about it, I sometimes throw in an old (>20 years) Fostex 16 bit 44.1 KHz converter. Until now, nobody's been able to *reliably* fish that one out in blind tests, even when I announce it's there.

I can, OTOH accept that 24 bit 96 KHz recordings might work better with some plugins, so it's not entirely black and white.

[Arpangel]

Behringer a copy of RME?
I hope not, I had an RME and could definitely hear issues, it was difficult to pin point, but it just didn't sound right, it was an "edgy" sound, something in the high end. But I definitely heard it. If the Behringer doesn't draw my attention to it like that RME then it's done it's job. If I do get the Berry, and I'm still unsure about all this, then it's only going to be handling uncritical inputs, like my cassette 4 track, my cassette machine, a couple of Korg Monotrons, crappy drum machine and a synth. So no ultra high quallity needed.
I'll never use the mic amps, I've got an external preamp for that.

[James Perrett]

Behringer a copy of RME?

I think a few Chinese whispers may have altered the story a little...

As I heard it, Mathias Carstens from RME worked for Behringer in their early days but I've not seen anything from RME that does the same thing as the ADA8000.

[Arpangel]

Behringer a copy of RME?

I think a few Chinese whispers may have altered the story a little...

As I heard it, Mathias Carstens from RME worked for Behringer in their early days but I've not seen anything from RME that does the same thing as the ADA8000.

Me neither, but I had an RME UCX.

I'm still unsure whether to stay ITB, it's proving a bit inflexible. But if I do stay, I'll get the ADA82000, Hugh's recommendation of the Audient I can appreciate, but I wouldn't make the most of it to be honestl

[Matt Houghton]

I've not seen anything from RME that does the same thing as the ADA8000.

RME's Octamic D ticked the same boxes. But it ticked more besides, and was a much nicer and more practical design...

[Arpangel]

I'm still finding that I have to keep making "workarounds" all the time now, and I have to keep diving behind to see where things are plugged in, not so when I had my mixer set-up.
Also, FX routing is now a major problem, it's not the number of I/O on the interface, it's not being able to use auxs easily, or at all. I like connecting my pedals to auxses, to control levels, I can't use some synths on full output going direct as it overloads the pedals, but I need full output as thats the only way I can get decent feedback effects, it's just all a bit of a faff, I'm going back to my mixer, probably.

[cyrano.mac]

Behringer a copy of RME?

I think a few Chinese whispers may have altered the story a little...

As I heard it, Mathias Carstens from RME worked for Behringer in their early days but I've not seen anything from RME that does the same thing as the ADA8000.

No Chinese whispers involved. Just some Americans bashing Behringer. The Chinese don't care...