Home recording piano and flute advice please!

[Siejen]

Hi all, amateur recorder here looking for the standard advice....
I've been invited to record a piano and flute duet in someones home. They have a baby grand piano in a front room of a good size, and want to record Schubert and Bach flute sonatas for their own happiness, maybe sell some self funded cds at concerts.

My main concern is that the acoustics here may preclude the preferred 'dominant pair of mics recording naturally balanced performers in a decent acoustic space' advice.
I've requested some photos so I can see if it's carpet or wooden floor, full of furniture or an art gallery style. We can move the piano inside the room, but not to a decent sounding hall! Piano has just been tuned as well.

I've spent a week reading these forums and particularly Mike Seniors excellent recording a grand piano article and sound examples. This really is a fantastic resource! Regards the piano, I happen to prefer the 'inside the piano' spaced omni setup type sound (note: this is maybe self affirming as I'm so concerned about the sound of recording in a front room). Call me a coward, but I feel like a pair of inside mics for the piano and separate flute mic is the way to go. I've been practising flute recording here with my daughter, following best forum advise, so am learning loads before I turn up!

So what advice do I need?
Is it really worth fighting the acoustics of the room to get a dominant pair of mics of the musicians together, especially when I don't really like the 'concert hall' sound of most classical recordings I've been listening to for reference.

Kit available: Pair of Line Audio CM4 (thanks again to this forum for the point; they sound great) in piano
Groove tubes GT1B (smooth valve LDC) for the flute.
Pair of SEelectronics SE1 (SDC) as backup....

Thanks for your thoughts in advance! Iain

[Arpangel]

Hi, I've been having similar problems recording grand piano and Marimba in a domestic living room, I've found, after experimentation, and advice from people here, that it's best to use seperate mics for each instrument close in, rather than a stereo pair, like you I would rather do it with one pair, but as you say, it's not worth fighting the room acoustic.
It's best to make sure they are well rehearsed, and put each mic/pair on a seperate track, isolation will be an issue, but at least it will give you some control over level if you need it later.

[hobbyist]

Hi all, amateur recorder here looking for the standard advice....
I've been invited to record a piano and flute duet in someones home. They have a baby grand piano in a front room of a good size, and want to record Schubert and Bach flute sonatas for their own happiness, maybe sell some self funded cds at concerts.

My main concern is that the acoustics here may preclude the preferred 'dominant pair of mics recording naturally balanced performers in a decent acoustic space' advice.
I've requested some photos so I can see if it's carpet or wooden floor, full of furniture or an art gallery style. We can move the piano inside the room, but not to a decent sounding hall! Piano has just been tuned as well.

I've spent a week reading these forums and particularly Mike Seniors excellent recording a grand piano article and sound examples. This really is a fantastic resource! Regards the piano, I happen to prefer the 'inside the piano' spaced omni setup type sound (note: this is maybe self affirming as I'm so concerned about the sound of recording in a front room). Call me a coward, but I feel like a pair of inside mics for the piano and separate flute mic is the way to go. I've been practising flute recording here with my daughter, following best forum advise, so am learning loads before I turn up!

So what advice do I need?
Is it really worth fighting the acoustics of the room to get a dominant pair of mics of the musicians together, especially when I don't really like the 'concert hall' sound of most classical recordings I've been listening to for reference.

Kit available: Pair of Line Audio CM4 (thanks again to this forum for the point; they sound great) in piano
Groove tubes GT1B (smooth valve LDC) for the flute.
Pair of SEelectronics SE1 (SDC) as backup....

Thanks for your thoughts in advance! Iain

Consider using figure 8 with piano to one side and flutes the other.

A pair of mikes in the piano [Our church has two sm57s in the piano and they sound fine to me] and one cardioid close to the flute is not a bad option.

My intuititon says to place them so no mike is aimed directly at a wall.

[Mike Stranks]

It all comes down to the room...

Photos are fine, but you really need a visit to assess what it's like acoustically.

A domestic, reverberant room is bad news.

You haven't mentioned what else you have/will be in the recording-chain, but assuming you have access to decent reverb plug-ins then I'd be tempted to go for as dry a recording as possible (duvets etc) and then put some reverb in afterwards.

That will be anathema to some, but IMHO better that than try and spend ages fighting the room. This is especially true if the performers aren't professionals or used to recording.

[CS70]

There was a long detailed thread on a very similar piano-recording-in-regular-untreated-room some weeks ago. Can't find it now in a hurry but maybe google helps.

[Bob Bickerton]

Pretty much impossible to tell until you hear and experiment with mic choice and position in the room. My approach would be to explain this to the artists and book a first session the purpose of which is to sort out technical aspects, including temporary room treatment (duvets and the like). It’s worth bearing in mind that even when you’re in the room, it can be hard to second guess mic positions unless you’re very experienced with recording acoustic instruments in compromised spaces, so be prepared to spend time experimenting, make good notes and lock in positions (mark if possible) when you find them.

Regarding your view on ‘concert hall recordings’ - actually it’s the client’s call on what sound they want on the recording

Bob

[hobbyist]

Pretty much impossible to tell until you hear and experiment with mic choice and position in the room. My approach would be to explain this to the artists and book a first session the purpose of which is to sort out technical aspects, including temporary room treatment (duvets and the like). It’s worth bearing in mind that even when you’re in the room, it can be hard to second guess mic positions unless you’re very experienced with recording acoustic instruments in compromised spaces, so be prepared to spend time experimenting, make good notes and lock in positions (mark if possible) when you find them.

Regarding your view on ‘concert hall recordings’ - actually it’s the client’s call on what sound they want on the recording

Bob

Good idea if you can do it. Often you do not get a chance to practice with a dry run to see which mikes where would be best.

[Siejen]

Hi all, and thanks for your thoughts on this.
A dry run is definitely a good idea. We're borrowing someones house for the piano, so I can ask. I'm definitely not experienced enough to get it right without some practise time.
I think I'm still happy multitracking and mixing in post. Waves had a sale on one day, so I've lots of lovely plugins! I'm practising placing a flute recording against the SOS piano mic position examples in cubase, so will have some kind of pre-mix to compare on the day.

I'll respectfully wind myself back on the concert hall comments: better to say the 'inside the piano' examples had an an intimacy that I loved, but that was missing from some of the distance mics.
And as I'm in no danger of getting paid, I don't mind having a little say in how it sounds too

[Exalted Wombat]

You're assuming room acoustics will be bad. Not necessarily. This is their music room, presumably they aren't too unhappy about how they sound in it. Give it the benefit of the doubt. If it's a bit lively for YOUR taste, refrain from saying so.

Have you got four channels to record into? Put the CM4s up in front of the whole thing as a stereo pair. Spot the piano with one SE1, the flute with the other. Not too close, breath noise and key clatter will be your enemies here. I think the LDC stays in its box for this one.

This sort of session often turns into two. Make sure at least a rough mix is delivered on the day. Give them a chance to hear their performances, scream loudly, then book another session after a week's practice. This doesn't ALWAYS happen...

Above all, remenber this isn't about you. It's about the music. Your primary job is to enable a great performance.

[Siejen]

Now there speaks the voice of experience!!

Plenty of channels available to set that up. Any suggestions on placement of the flautist to retain eye contact while not being so far away it’s dominated by the room sound? Curve of the piano is normal, but that pushes the main pair at least in line with the keyboard, ie back from pointing ‘into’ the strings. I’m guessing experimentation is key here. A couple of test recordings may let me know which way to go.

Cheers

[Bob Bickerton]

Wombat makes a good point. If the artists aren’t that used to recording and hearing what they sound really sound like, again an informal first session is a good idea. You imply they want to record a number of sonatas, so you’re most likely looking at multiple sessions anyway.

Another thought to consider is what standard are the musicians trying to achieve? Will they be recording multiple takes/part takes? Can you follow a score? You’ll certainly need to make notes.

Bob

[Bob Bickerton]

Yes, priority is to have the musicians comfortable with good sightlines - then you have to optimise mic placement around that.

Bob

[Siejen]

Hi, the pianist is comfortable with recording, but I believe this will be the flautists first time.
I’ll be following the score and have been doing homework listening so I’m familiar with the pieces. I’ve chatted through multiple takes of each piece, but warming them up to a second days recording sounds sensible. We’re meeting up again Tuesday.

Thanks again, Iain

[Bob Bickerton]

Sounds like it’s shaping up well.

Bob

[Arpangel]

Domestic rooms almost always sound boxy, we got around this by adding just a small amount of hall reverb, almost imperceptible, just to give it a sense of playing in a small hall, it worked really well, and all were pleased. It makes the recordings breath and you'd never know it was recorded in a living room.

[ef37a]

I shall follow your progress with great interest Siejen.
I hope you will be able to post some clips? If a CD does materialize, put me down for a copy.

Dave.

[Siejen]

[Ariosto]

Lots of good advice as usual. All I can really add is that you may need to be sensitive to good separation between the flute's register and the same register on the piano keyboard. It will also depend on the works being recorded, early sonatas by classical composers may be OK but later works with 19th and 20th C composers may be a bit more problematic. In this situation you *may* need a suitable mono mic fairly close to the flautist, but not too close as you may get breathing sounds and some air sounds as the flautist will be passing air over the mouthpiece. Good positioning is therefore essential. Of course some people like the sounds of the keys and the breath sounds, it's really a personal thing, but something to be aware of.

Edit: I should add that the separation will depend also on the sound of the room. And also that the musicians may be extremely good at balancing themselves, so in that case less need for the extra mic.

[Exalted Wombat]

Lots of good advice as usual. All I can really add is that you may need to be sensitive to good separation between the flute's register and the same register on the piano keyboard. It will also depend on the works being recorded, early sonatas by classical composers may be OK but later works with 19th and 20th C composers may be a bit more problematic.

Surely the opposite? Later works will have been conceived for an instrument pretty close to a modern piano. Earlier stuff may not have been conceived for piano at all, or for a piano with a much lighter tone than a modern one.

But the musicians will have addressed this issue. You shouldn't need 'remedial mixing' on this sort of session.

[Ariosto]

Surely the opposite? Later works will have been conceived for an instrument pretty close to a modern piano. Earlier stuff may not have been conceived for piano at all, or for a piano with a much lighter tone than a modern one.

But the musicians will have addressed this issue. You shouldn't need 'remedial mixing' on this sort of session.

Fine if using a clavichord or a similar early instrument but if you read the earlier posts, this is being recorded on a modern piano. Modern works will have possible challenges. The early works may have too, but as you might know, early keyboard works are less thickly scored.

And how do you know the musicians have addressed the issue?

[Siejen]

The pieces are by Bach and Schubert (although what age of keyboard they were intended for is well beyond my knowledge).
Happy to say I had a fun afternoon playing in cubase with Mike Seniors piano recording examples and mixing them against my daughters flute. I can understand a little more now about why a more spacious / less intimate piano recording may be useful. When balanced against a spot miced flute they compete for lots of the same sound 'space', while the distant mics sat better together.
My fingers are crossed we find the one front room that has a decent acoustic to start with!
I have lots of duvets, clothes rails to hang them on, even a gazeebo if we need to make an indoor duvet tent (I must credit the Boss with that one, but it has a roof and we can peg 2 sides for duvet, maybe not completely mad??

Iain

[Bob Bickerton]

Creativity can be your friend

Bob

[John Willett]

Hi all, amateur recorder here looking for the standard advice....
I've been invited to record a piano and flute duet in someones home. They have a baby grand piano in a front room of a good size, and want to record Schubert and Bach flute sonatas for their own happiness, maybe sell some self funded cds at concerts.

My main concern is that the acoustics here may preclude the preferred 'dominant pair of mics recording naturally balanced performers in a decent acoustic space' advice.
I've requested some photos so I can see if it's carpet or wooden floor, full of furniture or an art gallery style. We can move the piano inside the room, but not to a decent sounding hall! Piano has just been tuned as well.

I've spent a week reading these forums and particularly Mike Seniors excellent recording a grand piano article and sound examples. This really is a fantastic resource! Regards the piano, I happen to prefer the 'inside the piano' spaced omni setup type sound (note: this is maybe self affirming as I'm so concerned about the sound of recording in a front room). Call me a coward, but I feel like a pair of inside mics for the piano and separate flute mic is the way to go. I've been practising flute recording here with my daughter, following best forum advise, so am learning loads before I turn up!

So what advice do I need?
Is it really worth fighting the acoustics of the room to get a dominant pair of mics of the musicians together, especially when I don't really like the 'concert hall' sound of most classical recordings I've been listening to for reference.

Kit available: Pair of Line Audio CM4 (thanks again to this forum for the point; they sound great) in piano
Groove tubes GT1B (smooth valve LDC) for the flute.
Pair of SEelectronics SE1 (SDC) as backup....

Thanks for your thoughts in advance! Iain

Firstly, I would do a recce and see if the ensemble sounds good in the room.

Move around the room and listen with your ears.

If you can find a spot in the room where it sounds good to your ears, then stick a stereo pair at that point and record.

If, unfortunately, you cannot find anywhere in the room where the sound is good - then you will have to get more creative ...

[Siejen]

Thanks John, but I think my worry is not being confident enough to know if it sounds good (or not!) while walking round. From reading round here, I understand the ear is very good at compensating for room acoustics on the fly, and less tolerant of a recording (hence why I wouldn't notice if it sounded poor until playback).
The more I think, the more a second day seems a necessity! If only to compensate for lack of clear early decisions on my part

Thanks all, Iain.

[John Willett]

Thanks John, but I think my worry is not being confident enough to know if it sounds good (or not!) while walking round. From reading round here, I understand the ear is very good at compensating for room acoustics on the fly, and less tolerant of a recording (hence why I wouldn't notice if it sounded poor until playback).
The more I think, the more a second day seems a necessity! If only to compensate for lack of clear early decisions on my part.

That's why I said "do a recce".

Do a short test recording after finding the spot and see if it works.

I did exactly this when I had to record a double-CD of all of Chopin Nocturnes on a grand piano in someone's living room.

I did the walk - recorded in three separate places with two possible combinations of microphones (MS and spaced omni) and chose the rig and position with what sounded best.

I did the recce a couple of weeks prior to the first session.