Time to upgrade my bands PA system. Advice needed please.

[BlackAngel1966]

Hi there. I think it’s time that my band looks into upgrading our current PA system. We are a loud 3 piece rock band (guitar/bass/and LOUD drummer), and typically play in small clubs and pubs. We currently use a Yamaha stagepas 600 which I’ve got to say is pretty good for our needs, however in certain smaller, odd shaped venues we get feedback issues and perhaps a lack of clarity and headroom. We only put 2 vocal mics through the system with nothing else mic’d up. So we need something fairly compact (similar size/weight to stagepas) but with a bit more volume/headroom and a hopefully a better sound. I’ve been looking at QSC k8.2 or 10.2 or maybe the Yamaha dxr10, with a small basic mixing desk (Mackie or Yamaha or similar). We play 40 to 45 gigs a year all of the country so reliability and portability are as important as the sound quality. Anybody got any experience running the speakers mentioned in a small, live, loud environment. Cheers and thanks in advance.

[Sam Spoons]

Hi and welcome.

Yes, I use Yamaha DXR10s as monitors with a fairly loud three piece and as a 'hired out' PA rig/engineer. They will be a large step up on your StagePas.

My FOH is a sub and a pair of QSC K12s and when I bought them I compared several 12" actives including the DXR12 and DSR12. Those three speakers fell in price order DSR, K12, DXR (£500, £750 & £900) in order of preference but the extra cost of the DSR was too much for my budget at the time.

Given the choice I'd probably go for an Allen & Heath Zed fx series mixer in preference to the Mackie or Yamaha (though I've used both the others quite happily).

[Wonks]

My FOH is a sub and a pair of QSC K12s and when I bought them I compared several 12" actives including the DXR12 and DSR12. Those three speakers fell in price order DSR, K12, DXR (£900, £750 & £500) in order of preference but the extra cost of the DSR was too much for my budget at the time.
.

FTFY

[Sam Spoons]

Thanks Wonks

[DanR]

Hi
Another vote for DXR10s. I have a pair for keys.
You probably won’t use the onboard mixing much if adding a mixer but may be useful.
QSC K8.2 or K10.2 would do fine but cost a fair bit more.
Yams are better bang for the buck.

RCF ART710 mk4 or HD10 mk4 would do well too. While Yamaha and QSC have the edge on SPL, RCF have better sound quality and it’s consistent even when pushed.
I have the HD12s and they are fantastic.

Any of the above with an A&H Zed10FX as suggested and you’re set.

[AlecSp]

All the replies so far have indicated speakers that should be a step up from your StagePas system.

But do be sure that you're not spending money in the wrong place. If you're running into feedback problems at the moment, new speakers are unlikely to do much to remedy that if nothing else changes. Granted, a more even response will help, but feedback problems are likely to be either poor mics, poor positioning of kit, or that you're simply too **** loud (you did say more or less that in your opening post).

What mics are you currently using? And are you sure they're genuine, especially if they're something as commonly faked as the SM58. It could well be that a change in mics will help you, too.

You don't mention what your monitoring setup is. If it's your FOH speakers behind you, then you might be able to fix all your problems by bringing the speakers forward. But you'll then need to add monitors so you can hear what you're singing. And, if you're monitoring from FOH, are you sure the lack of clarity isn't down to being off axis - how does it sound to someone out front?

[BlackAngel1966]

Thanks all for the advice and comments here. It’s appreciated. In response to a couple of the questions... we use (genuine) SM58s, our FOH speakers are positioned in front of the mics and we use fairly decent Alto floor monitors. The main issue we have is trying to keep up volume wise with our drummer sometimes in small cramped environments where you can’t locate your FOH speakers far enough away from the mics. Hence attracting feedback. I’m guessing this will be a problem whatever PA system you use!

[Mike Stranks]

Wise words from Alec...

Small room + loud band = problems.

Another issue often overlooked is the sound from the floor monitors/FoH/backline hitting the stage back wall and bouncing back into the stage area. Smears the sound a treat and increases the possibilities of feedback.

In summary; upgrading the kit may not be enough. A rethink of your playing volume may also be required.

[Wonks]

Hanging a simple backcloth behind the band can do a surprising amount to cut down on feedback in a small space. It's something else to carry round, but it can noticeably reduce the amount of reflected HF.

[DanR]

You don't mention what your monitoring setup is. If it's your FOH speakers behind you, then you might be able to fix all your problems by bringing the speakers forward. But you'll then need to add monitors so you can hear what you're singing.

Yes, address that first. A loud band with a StagePas for FOH and monitoring, there’s going to be sound issues.

[BlackAngel1966]

You don't mention what your monitoring setup is. If it's your FOH speakers behind you, then you might be able to fix all your problems by bringing the speakers forward. But you'll then need to add monitors so you can hear what you're singing.

Yes, address that first. A loud band with a StagePas for FOH and monitoring, there’s going to be sound issues.

Hi there. Speakers are always in front of mics (sm58s), and we use reasonable quality (we are all a bit skint!) but adequate floor monitors. The feedback issues only really occur in the more confined venues/back rooms of pubs etc. And, yep...I think we are too loud to be playing such places!! My thinking is that by upgrading our PA this should give us a more clear and detailed vocal sound with better eq possibilities, hopefully negating the need to crank it up so loud thus minimising feedback? We’ve played in small little venues with excellent in house PAs/monitors etc and have not suffered with feedback issues.

[AlecSp]

Thanks all for the advice and comments here. It’s appreciated. In response to a couple of the questions... we use (genuine) SM58s, our FOH speakers are positioned in front of the mics and we use fairly decent Alto floor monitors. The main issue we have is trying to keep up volume wise with our drummer sometimes in small cramped environments where you can’t locate your FOH speakers far enough away from the mics. Hence attracting feedback. I’m guessing this will be a problem whatever PA system you use!

So, you may well be testing the laws of physics to their extreme.

It would be interesting to know which of FOH or monitoring was your issue. It's quite possible that it's monitoring. When you next soundcheck in a problem venue, try playing with FOH levels a little to see which is most it its limit - ideally, you'd have a capable assistant to do this with you.

If monitoring turns out to be the problem, then an in-ears solution could make all the difference, but it's an added level of complexity, as you'd likely need more stuff going into your ears, as well as needing to give the drummer a feed.

You really shouldn't have too much trouble with just a 2 x vocal system.

But, if the root cause is your stupid loud drummer, then maybe that's what you need to be looking to change.

What do the (sober) punters think of what they're hearing. Are the vocals struggling? Is the mix right? Are the drums too *** loud?

Also, where are you. If local to any forum members, you might get a kind soul prepared to come and spend time with you to help identify the root cause, and even look at some solutions - noise people can be good like that.... I'm East Herts.

[DanR]

What do the (sober) punters think of what they're hearing. Are the vocals struggling? Is the mix right? Are the drums too *** loud?

Yes, that’s an important point.
If the band is unavoidably in close proximity to the drums, then the monitors need to come up, regardless of FOH levels.
Increases the possibility of feedback from the monitors.
Obviously, the drums need to be of a certain volume for the style of music so some venues
may just be too small for loud rock.
If this has to be the case sometimes, then in ears as suggested would help a lot.

[BlackAngel1966]

Hello all. Once again, thanks for the advice and information. Seemingly I just need to sack the drummer and stop playing in small places! I’m not a sound engineer/expert in any way...I’m a guitar player that somehow got lumbered with providing the PA...but I think I’ll take more care and time in positioning the FOH speakers, the mics and our monitors. I still think that the StagePas is somewhat lacking in sound quality and perhaps headroom, and according to some commenters here, I should see a definite improvement if/when I upgrade. Thanks all...over and out.

[DanR]

Hello all. Once again, thanks for the advice and information. Seemingly I just need to sack the drummer and stop playing in small places! I’m not a sound engineer/expert in any way...I’m a guitar player that somehow got lumbered with providing the PA...but I think I’ll take more care and time in positioning the FOH speakers, the mics and our monitors. I still think that the StagePas is somewhat lacking in sound quality and perhaps headroom, and according to some commenters here, I should see a definite improvement if/when I upgrade. Thanks all...over and out.

Yes, experiment with speaker positioning. Drummer sacking and turning down small gigs
should be a last resort.
I think more power, quality and headroom all round will vastly improve things.
The StagePas is an absolute minimum for the style of music. I know the whole band isn’t going through the PA but vocals need to be heard clearly.
Using 10s for rock FOH, they need to be very good ones.
The Alto monitors - good sounding speakers for not much money. Would be interesting to see how hard they’re working.
If no luck with what you have, a pair of DXR10s would be a good start and you could experiment using them either for monitors or FOH.
Good luck with it.

[Sam Spoons]

Buy the drummer some lighter sticks for small venues, many rock drummers use telegraph poles when they really need knitting needles (or, in drumspeak he needs 7As instead of 2Bs for those little gigs).

[matt04ie]

Hi I'm up with the last 12 hours on my phone on you tube on Google, and checking reviews and feedbacks and still as confused as ever, you mention your band has the stagepas 600, is that really powerful enough for a band, I had a 4 piece band and my system was and still is the Dynacord P5, and absolutely love this system so much and yes it's old tech now but still working hard and delivering now that I'm a oneman band and dj,
I purchased the new Yamaha Stagepas 1k and got 2 but I'm still not entirely satisfied with this system, it has its pros and cons, I'm now in the process of moving it on and looking for a good active powered speakers, that will have excellent vocal clarity and handle backing tracks and keyboards and at high pressure still keep their clarity
and so far RCF range is getting my attention either the Art 712 mk 4
or the Rcf 715 Mk 2 I really don't know
but my yamaha Stagepas 1k's not I really don't think they are all they are said to be
ok and fine for Oneman and guitar and small disco functions, speakers hunt still on here, Fbt is another as I'm told much under rated speaker, I really don't know,
But in relation to mics you mention ye have Shure SM58, well I watched the movie bohemian Rapsody and at the end I see Freddie singing through a beautiful shiny mic and I said ok I'll buy this mic what ever it is, paused the screen and see its a Shure 565SD, may not suit everyone but oh my I absolutely love love this mic, I have so many expensive mics in the byer range and even the beta 58A
and Sm58, but this Mic you gotta try, so crisp, so if you get sorted with your new PA, do let me know, also if you bought the 565SD,

[Sam Spoons]

The previously mentioned Yamaha DXR10 is now in it's mkII guise and is still a significant step up from any 'all-in-one' system I've ever heard (including the Stagepas 600). Ignore the watts rating as that is rarely useful with powered speakers and look at the SPL figures. The DXR10 can put out 132dB* max output, the Stagepas 1k you mention can only manage 119dB. Thats a pretty significant difference. I'd still stand by my recommendation of a couple of DXR10's and an A&H Zed series mixer as an ideal small pub band rig.

* If the budget is there the Yamaha DZR range are the most powerful in their class/price range, a DZR10 is capable of max SPL of 137dB but is about 50% more expensive than the equivlent DXR.

[Dave Rowles]

Ok...read through the whole thread...so

Firstly, as has been said, the speakers you mention in your first post and suggestions here will be a very good step up from what you've got FOH. Can't really add anything more from that point, and of course, pointing the speakers in the right direction is also a must.

Read up on where they fire their noise, i.e. 45degree, or 90 degree, and stand in front of the speaker with your arms in that angle and you can see where the sound is going, and try to avoid reflections onto walls, or firing the sound back at the stage.

Alto speakers are capable of providing the volume you'll need, I use them myself on my small local gigs, but I find they need some sort of system EQ if you want to do LOUD, plus again, making sure the speaker is actually pointed at your ears is a good thing. I know it's tempting to have them in front of you, but consider having them off to one side, and I'd suggest non drummer side if that's an option. This will fire the sound down your ear a lot easier, and also approach the mic in a less feedback angle.

I'd also suggest trying something other than a 58. I've found the sE V7 mics to be far more resistant to feedback and may help. They aren't that expensive.

Finally, when thinking about a mixer, consider the digital options, such as behringer/midas XR/MR or soundcraft UI series or mackie offerings. These will get you EQ options such as graphic EQs which can be used to reduce feedback frequencies, if you feel able to give it a try. That said, if you're not that experienced, these mixers can seem a bit overwhelming, so I only suggest it as an option to explore.

All of this is budget dependant of course!