Home recording piano and flute advice please!

[Siejen]

Thanks John, it's good to know this is merely tricky, and not impossible . I hope to do justice to all the help so far!
Anyway, I've been messing around with Mike Seniors piano recordings and my daughters flute, and have come up with this sort of sound that I think I like. This uses the cardioids outside the piano (as I'll be able to setup similar I hope)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/15d-mjy ... sp=sharing
Any comments ? (and please go easy on the flute playing comments, she has a Dad faffing around her with microphones while she plays!!)
Iain

[Sam Inglis]

If I'm right in thinking that your Line Audio mics are omnis, I think the first thing I'd try would be to have them arranged as a spaced pair between the piano and the flautist. In other words, to position them as you might for recording a solo piano piece and then place the flautist behind them. That way you should be able to get a reasonable balance between the two instruments without having to go very distant and thus bring in more room sound than you want.

[Siejen]

Sorry Sam, I got the cm4 cardioids. I did read the piece on soprano and piano describing this technique after buying them and think about what I’d done, but longer term I think the cm4 will see more use.

[John Willett]

Sorry Sam, I got the cm4 cardioids. I did read the piece on soprano and piano describing this technique after buying them and think about what I’d done, but longer term I think the cm4 will see more use.

As the Line Audio mics are such very good value, I would also recommend that you also get a pair of the OM1 omnis when you can.

[Exalted Wombat]

Surely the opposite? Later works will have been conceived for an instrument pretty close to a modern piano. Earlier stuff may not have been conceived for piano at all, or for a piano with a much lighter tone than a modern one.

But the musicians will have addressed this issue. You shouldn't need 'remedial mixing' on this sort of session.

Fine if using a clavichord or a similar early instrument but if you read the earlier posts, this is being recorded on a modern piano. Modern works will have possible challenges. The early works may have too, but as you might know, early keyboard works are less thickly scored.

And how do you know the musicians have addressed the issue?

I think you miss my point. The later works will have been composed with modern flute and piano (or instruments very close to them) in mind. The composer will have scored them in a way that sounds good. That's part of his skill-set as a composer! We shouldn't have to double-guess his musical intentions in the way that we might need to when performing a 17th century piece on the 'wrong' instruments.

But this isn't like recording a bad rock group with players who don't know how to give way musically. I think (hope!) we can assume these guys are listening to each other and balancing as required.

[Siejen]

Hi again, photos are in from the house and I think we might just get away with this!!
It’s a very odd shaped room with few parallel walls but more importantly it has a balcony so is double height
It’s all hard surfaces, so plenty of duvets at the ready for flutter echos, but large low frequency standing waves may be less of an issue than I feared.

Poorer news is that we only have the day, so reduced track list it is. Until they want to try again after more practise!!!

[Drew Stephenson]

Shame about the time limit but the room sounds promising, good luck!

[Exalted Wombat]

Poorer news is that we only have the day, so reduced track list it is.

What does that mean?

[Drew Stephenson]

I took it to mean recording fewer pieces. Seems like a sensible approach rather than trying to jam stuff in and compromise on the set up time.

[Siejen]

Yes, exactly that. I’ve been optimistic on track numbers before and it never really ends well for anyone. So as this is more ‘grown up’ than I’ve done before, i want to focus on the quality.

<dawning realisation I might actually have grown up, but just not noticed >

[Drew Stephenson]

<dawning realisation I might actually have grown up, but just not noticed >

Whoah, watch out for that. It's a slippery slope. Better sit around and watch cartoons for half an hour whilst you eat a tub of ice-cream. That should stave it off for a while.

[Siejen]

Does riding my bike round the woods until I fall off count??

[Sam Spoons]

That'll do it can I join you?

[Drew Stephenson]

Does riding my bike round the woods until I fall off count??

Definitely!

[Exalted Wombat]

I took it to mean recording fewer pieces. Seems like a sensible approach rather than trying to jam stuff in and compromise on the set up time.

This isn't your decision. You're recording, not producing. You set up your equipment, they play. When THEY are happy with the performance of one piece, move on to the next one. YOU don't get two goes at anything.

[Aural Reject]

I took it to mean recording fewer pieces. Seems like a sensible approach rather than trying to jam stuff in and compromise on the set up time.

This isn't your decision. You're recording, not producing. You set up your equipment, they play. When THEY are happy with the performance of one piece, move on to the next one. YOU don't get two goes at anything.

I’ve not checked the thread but do you categorically know that?

I’ve often come across people who expect feedback from the ‘engineer’, including production decisions.

[Mike Stranks]

I took it to mean recording fewer pieces. Seems like a sensible approach rather than trying to jam stuff in and compromise on the set up time.

This isn't your decision. You're recording, not producing. You set up your equipment, they play. When THEY are happy with the performance of one piece, move on to the next one. YOU don't get two goes at anything.

I’ve not checked the thread but do you categorically know that?

I’ve often come across people who expect feedback from the ‘engineer’, including production decisions.

Quite

[Siejen]

As we’re all pretty green at this, I’m looking to manage expectations on what we will achieve. I fully expect a second day to be requested (based on experienced feedback here), but everyone involved needs to see that for themselves.
A copy of the days recordings on the day is a genius idea to put in perspective what we achieved. If they’re happy with the playing, we’re good. If not, we go again. We’re only doing this for our own fun, after all!

[Exalted Wombat]

I took it to mean recording fewer pieces. Seems like a sensible approach rather than trying to jam stuff in and compromise on the set up time.

This isn't your decision. You're recording, not producing. You set up your equipment, they play. When THEY are happy with the performance of one piece, move on to the next one. YOU don't get two goes at anything.

I’ve not checked the thread but do you categorically know that?

I’ve often come across people who expect feedback from the ‘engineer’, including production decisions.

Quite

You could be right! Anyway, we'll know soon. Did you tell us when the session was?

[Siejen]

Session is Wednesday.
Timetable so far is arrive and setup PC, mics at 9.
Pianist coming at 9 as he knows the family we're borrowing the piano from.
Stereo mic positioning, duvet hanging and trial recordings until 11 when Flautist arrives.
Additional spot mics, trial runs, mugs of tea until Lunch.
Then record until family return to their home and we get thrown out!!

New news is there are some solo flute pieces to do, but those can be done later at my place. Getting the piano pieces will be the focus of Wednesday.

[John Willett]

<dawning realisation I might actually have grown up, but just not noticed >

You can't be a musician then.

Mummy, mummy, when I grow up I want to be a musician.
Sorry darling, you can't do both.

[Siejen]

Moving on... it’s the night before and all the gear is packed. Good news is I’m sold on the dominant pair of mics. Discussion here and lots of listening and playing with multiple tracks says you’re all right, so thanks. Nearly failed at the first hurdle!
Now I’m worried by how far away an ORTF pair needs to be to capture the pair. In the room I’m going to be lucky to get 2m from the piano. Is there a recommended distance from source for ORTF? Does NOS allow me closer? (Narrower recording angle; been reading and listening )!
Experiments here favour ORTF over xy (too clinical)

I’m guessing this is normal nerves. Thanks for all the help so far. More tomorrow!!

[Siejen]

Question; does the ‘over’ cardioid response of the line Audio cm4 come into play here as well?
As they’re not strict cardioid, should I be closer to 27cm, 120degrees for a 96degree SRA?

Rabbit hole here I come

[Bob Bickerton]

It sounds as though your research has been excellent but maybe, and others may disagree, my recommendation now will be to start with the CM4 ORTF pair and then focus your energy on listening.

Be aware of balance, width of the image and placement within the image. Be prepared to move musicians as well as mics. Assess the tonality of the elements and what impact the room is having on this.

And try to enjoy the experience!

Do report back and let us know how you got on.

Bob

[Siejen]

Thanks Bob.
The car is so full of duvets, clips and things to hang them from I lost a little perspective
Musicians, instruments and room are all above angle of mic separation in my head now