Home recording piano and flute advice please!

[Siejen]

Recording day done, and grateful thanks to all your wonderful advice. Day went well, spoilt only slightly by technical issues (not mine)!
Fuller report and samples tomorrow. It’s glass of wine o’clock!!

[Guest]

Gordon shares some practicalities & advice on how to record your playing, ... recording for posterity, you can often do so at home with reasonably basic ... I find it good to place my recorder on a chair next to the piano bench. . please mail them to your nearest Simply Music office inappropriate packaging:

[Siejen]

Days report, for those interested
The room was really quite small, but such an unusual shape the normal room modes were just not the problem. The double height hall (as it was a hall) had almost no parallel walls, balconies on three sides and a domed roof!! Listening around the space, the piano sounded great wherever, which was the bit I was really worried about. The mics went up in various positions while the pair played, including over the balcony looking down which gave a nice balance. The best balance was mics 2m high behind the flute pointing down ish, almost the ideal flute position, and placing her in the curve of the piano the mics could 'see' the strings. This gave a central flute impression, with a broad piano that had no issues when collapsed to mono This height was at the bottom of the balcony, so I put duvet over the balconies behind the mics and the other side where they pointed, just to cut first reflections.

However, this close to the flautist key clicks became an issue. The pads of the flute were pretty worn, and we ended up using about a pack of cigarette papers under the keys and moving the mics around to almost behind her head just so the clicks weren't so direct.
At this point I ran secondary spot mics to the piano and flute, pointing 180degrees away from each other so one saw the piano strings and one looked at the flute headpiece (again, slightly away from the keys). The thought of this was if I could use a 'transient designer' plugin to reduce the 'attack' of the flute (i.e. the clicks) I could support the main pair and at least minimise the impression of clicks.

We then ran through the pieces (2 sonatas, 3 movements each), and I was so grateful that I could follow the score!! After the first couple of recordings (where I was so busy monitoring recording levels and making sure I wasn't in loop record(!!!) I wasn't able to do anything else) I was able to note the score as we went through and make sure the mistakes in the next take were in a different place

I spent yesterday comping the different takes together, just from the stereo pair. Good news is that the key clicks are a lot less obvious over speakers than on my headphones. I've not tried the spot mics yet, bar a quick listen which has done nothing but confuse me. The piano is about the same level in each of the mics (did I mention this was a diffuse environment!), and the flute is not to far off. Either that, or I have the worlds only omni SE1a mics....

Big thanks for all the advice here. Notes on the score were essential. Main pair and spots was exactly the way to go. A pre-run would have highlighted the flute key issue (the flautist left slightly ashen faced after playback on headphones), but I didn't have that luxury.
We didn't record any solo flute pieces, but have agreed to do those at my place once the flute is serviced.

Other things: next time I'll get a long headphone extension lead to listen to the mics as I place them (I could only do that in a limited point from the pc, but it was bloody useful for making the image central!), and when listening to recordings of different positions, remember to normalise them first. I spent half an hour fine tuning an over the balcony position that only really sounded better because of a level difference!!

Now, hopefully I'll see you on the mixing forum as I try not to over-cook some basically good recordings!! I will post some of the comped stuff 'dry' and after a bit of hall reverb, for comment. Cheers,
Iain

[Drew Stephenson]

Sounds like a pretty good first day, thanks for the update.

[Exalted Wombat]

Any results for us to hear yet?

[Siejen]

Anything for you, EW
Schubert Sonata in A Minor, except the first bit because Soundcloud has a copyright issue with it

https://soundcloud.com/iain-suffield/mi ... -schubert3
https://soundcloud.com/iain-suffield/mi ... -schubert2
https://soundcloud.com/iain-suffield/mi ... -schubert4
https://soundcloud.com/iain-suffield/mi ... -schubert5

These are just the main pair (no spots yet), some eq and reverb.
All comments gratefully received

Iain

[Siejen]

Those lovely SoundCloud people have re-instated the first section, so you can hear it now complete
https://soundcloud.com/iain-suffield/mi ... -schubert1

And then to the Bach (with less reverb as befits the more chamber-y style)
Iain

[Exalted Wombat]

Finally got round to listening!

Not bad at all. Were the performers pleased?

[Tim Gillett]

Nice performance.

On a random listen I heard what sounds like a nasty clip on Schubert 4 at 0:50, suggesting record levels were too high.

Generally I hear what sounds like pedal thump, or it may be one of the performers beating time with a foot. Possibly the thump has transmitted mechanically through the mic stand and into a mic.

I also noticed a high frequency clicking sound from the flute which puzzled me as I'd never heard that particular sound before. Reading your post recording post, I'm wondering if the cigarette paper may be causing this sound.

It's always good to monitor the recording as it takes place, with headphones.

Cheers
Tim.

[Siejen]

Thanks EW, Tim,
Yeah, pleased so far.
The overload is a great spot, Tim. There are actually 2, and I've replaced them with different takes from each so they're gone.

The bass / mechanical noise is something I'm struggling with. I agree it sounds like the pedal movements continually transmitting to the mics. I had the mics in suspensions, but couldn't get 17cm / 110degrees as the holders were too big or the Line Audio mics too small, so I took them out and used normal clips. I couldn't hear the low frequencies on the day, but they're there now For anyone interested, they're most audible in part 1, bars 1-8 the very first few seconds!!! I have put Waves F6 (level dependent EQ) on this first section which has reduced it a little, but it's pretty clear on decent monitors. Any other suggestions welcome. All takes have it, I checked and checked again!

The key clicks are the technical issue the flautist was most upset by. The cigarette papers were an attempt to minimise clicks, but don't last as long as new pads. I did move the pair of mics away from line of sight of the flute, but they're there for us all to hear.

The only other thing I hear in the recordings is the pianist huffing his way through some of the pieces, but this is real life, and he enjoys a good huff

[Exalted Wombat]

I don't think it's mechanically-transmitted noise from the piano mechanism, just straightforward acoustic sound.

I'm not hearing much stereo image. What stereo information there IS seems rather diffuse, possibly mostly from artificial reverbration. Did you have a stereo pair in front of the whole thing?

[Siejen]

Yes, ORTF pair. I’ve not used the spots yet as they actually didn’t add much.
The recording space was quite small, the mic pair was behind the flautist who was facing the pianist, so there’s not much image to be had. I can put up some untreated sounds if you would listen. I’d appreciate the learning if I’ve destroyed something with my processing.

[Tim Gillett]

Yes the "pedal thump" may not be transmitted mechanically to the mics but through the air. Even so it's not part of the performance. Next time I'd explore temporarily adding a suitable piece of rubber/felt/closed cell foam to the offending spot in the piano mech, probably under the sustain pedal where it bottoms out on the wooden frame. These sorts of noises tend to develop slowly over time and it's easy for the musos to not notice it until a third party does.

[Siejen]

I've given them a little polish, and uploaded the Bach as well.
@EW; there is one here that is only the comp (onlycomp Schubert2) without processing. Compared to the processed, I can't hear much loss of image, but if you could comment, I'd really appreciate it
https://soundcloud.com/iain-suffield
Thanks,
Iain

[Tim Gillett]

Thanks Iain. I enjoyed listening to a couple of the Bach tracks. The high frequency ticking noises coming from the flute were prominent at times. You might try a Declicker tool on this, experimenting with the click sensitivity. I wouldn't attempt removal of all these noises but at least many of them could probably be removed or at least their annoyance value reduced without compromising the musical sounds.

Tim

[Siejen]

Hi Tim, thanks for commenting. I’ll investigate a de-clicker. I’m sure waves will have a sale on soon Unless any recommendations???
The flute has been serviced now with fresh pads, so solo pieces should be click free when recording.

If they’re so different, we may even get the second days piano recording everyone expected!!

[Ariosto]

I've listened to a little of Bach 1 & 2

Good balance between flute and piano.

My problem is that there is a lot of mush coming from the piano and I'm not sure if this is the instrument. Perhaps it would have been better to really close mic the piano* in stereo and have a mono mic for the flute with distance between players so that there was more separation in the sound. Then the flute (also fairly close miked) could be balanced against the piano in post production.

* Perhaps experimenting with mics inside the lid and over the harp, or even just over the hammers. Good piano sound comes from the initial hammer contact with the strings which "should" continue to ring without mush or distortion, and without the sustain pedal introducing nasty sounds. Of course this relies on a piano being in top condition and just having been tuned very well. Unfortunately the piano is an instrument that can sound terrible (and even worse on recordings) if it is not set up extremely well. This may all be out of your control of course. When I've been involved in recordings with violin and piano the instrument is freshly tuned and also retuned during the sessions if necessary.

[Exalted Wombat]

So you had a stereo pair up, but it was looking at the back of the flautist?

I wouldn't fiddle with this one any more. The finger isn't pointing at you - the pianist has heard that his instrument requires a tuner/technician's attention and the flutist has heard that his instrument also needs an overhaul. Schedule another session after that's been taken care of. Decide where the audience is sitting, put the stereo pair there and get them to play in that direction!

[Tim Gillett]

Just to clarify, my suggestion to declick related to the existing recordings as about all that could be done to improve them. For any future recordings in the same room, I'd mic each instrument separately and closer as Ariosto mentions. We can always add good reverb later but removing bad location coloration is difficult if not impossible.

[Exalted Wombat]

I've given them a little polish, and uploaded the Bach as well.
@EW; there is one here that is only the comp (onlycomp Schubert2) without processing. Compared to the processed, I can't hear much loss of image, but if you could comment, I'd really appreciate it
https://soundcloud.com/iain-suffield
Thanks,
Iain

I like it a lot better without all that reverb!

Might you have neglected Rule #1 of applying any effect? Dial it up until it sounds REALLY lush. Then dial it back by at least 50%

[Exalted Wombat]

The great thing about a thread like this is that it prompts us to seek out performances like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EmCrNJ3bXY

Listen to 2'00" if you think repeat echo is just a modern recording technique. Schubert wrote it in the piano part!

The only mics I can see are the slung pair.

[Siejen]

I'd never considered it like that...
The performance is spot on on the link, but I'm not sure about the recording quality itself (not <obviously> that I have any evidence of doing any better!!) but thanks for the link as it gives helps me hone in on what a 'good' performance sounds like.

Anyway, we're going for the flute only recordings at the end of the month, so I'm hoping the key click will be sorted as the flute has been serviced. Then I'm temped to try and do the piano pieces again, but we'll see how that goes

Test recordings suggest mono and a distance away from the flute to let the sound develop a little. And no great washes of reverb this time

Thanks all, Iain