Recording Steinway grand piano - damper noise

[Tim Gillett]

Yes a good point for all musicians to bear in mind when recording, no matter what the instrument. I've seen pianists get to the end of a difficult piece, play the last chord, lean back and the foot comes off the sustain pedal sharply, with a very audible bumping sound...
As some Yanks say," It aint over till it's over"!

[Arpangel]

Yes a good point for all musicians to bear in mind when recording, no matter what the instrument. I've seen pianists get to the end of a difficult piece, play the last chord, lean back and the foot comes off the sustain pedal sharply, with a very audible bumping sound...
As some Yanks say," It aint over till it's over"!

I do that on all my piano recordings, to a certain extent, it's necessary, it's marking an ending, with a statement, and it in no way detracts from anything, it's another way of using the instrument. It's a problem that doesn't exist.
On a recording session as an engineer I've come across some uncooperative belligerent musicians, and it's annoying, but ultimately we are at their service, not the other way around.
If you're a great musician, truly great, you're forgiven and everyone thinks what a "character" you are, but if you're a rank amatuer with ideas beyond your ability you're an annoying prima-donna, and quite rightly so.

[Wonks]

That's a personal preference, not a fact, so it will be an issue for a lot of people, and less of one or no issue for others. The very fact that it's been brought up by other people highlights this.

[Arpangel]

That's a personal preference, not a fact, so it will be an issue for a lot of people, and less of one or no issue for others. The very fact that it's been brought up by other people highlights this.

True, but I don't know what those who get annoyed at damper noise would think of me, muttering "Nice" at the end of all my pieces...

[Wonks]

Everyone's different. It would be boring if we weren't.

[Arpangel]

Everyone's different. It would be boring if we weren't.

No it wouldn't! I'd love someone to agree with me all the time, I say this because when I open my mouth in front of my parter, obviously, no sound ever comes out of it, it's like I'm an invisible dumb entity, and I'm automatically wrong whatever I say....

[John Willett]

Yes a good point for all musicians to bear in mind when recording, no matter what the instrument. I've seen pianists get to the end of a difficult piece, play the last chord, lean back and the foot comes off the sustain pedal sharply, with a very audible bumping sound...
As some Yanks say," It aint over till it's over"!

I do that on all my piano recordings, to a certain extent, it's necessary, it's marking an ending, with a statement, and it in no way detracts from anything, it's another way of using the instrument. It's a problem that doesn't exist.
On a recording session as an engineer I've come across some uncooperative belligerent musicians, and it's annoying, but ultimately we are at their service, not the other way around.
If you're a great musician, truly great, you're forgiven and everyone thinks what a "character" you are, but if you're a rank amatuer with ideas beyond your ability you're an annoying prima-donna, and quite rightly so.

I have had similar on a session where a performer says "that was a good one" immediately after the last note and while the note was still dying away.

My reply - "yes it was, but your talking spoilt the ending, so we will have to do it again".

My rule is - silence for ten seconds after the last note to allow for it to die away and not to talk until the red light goes out (after the 10 seconds).

[Arpangel]

Thank you all for your reactions!

First: i agree to embrace the sounds. It makes the recording feel real.

The first recording i used Neumann 103 mics, and there the sound was really too loud to embrace. It was bumpy (low bass noise) and also high frequency string noise.
This made pp and ppp passages very a-relaxed to listen to.

Fortunately, i could also use the Neumann 193 mics, and as a miracle, this mics nearly doesn`t record the noise! I don`t know how, but the sound is perfect:
You still hear some pedal/damper noise, but very subtile and soft and real, and not annoying or blocking your ppp feeling.

But still weird that a Steinway from 2011 in top condition makes such noise. You really hear the string noise while playing p pp or ppp passages.

The 103 has an HF lift (about +6dB) and the 193 is pretty flat - so the 103 would accentuate any HF noise.

When I record piano (especially a concert grand) I always use flat-response omnis as these gat the low end which a directional mic misses. My "go to" starting position is about 20cm spaced at about ear height and about 2m in front of the piano - but I will vary this depending on the piano, the room and the piece being played.

I hope this helps.

The lack of bass issue is important, John, the reason our mutual friend Mike went over to omnis on grand piano in fact. Like you 20cm spaced, but he would place them at the foot of the piano, about 1m away. Always seemed to work well in a big acoustic, like a large church.

[The Bunk]

You could always try something like this....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuzpyuzCgBU

[Hugh Robjohns]

Nah... well damped, but the action is too heavy...

[John Willett]

The lack of bass issue is important, John, the reason our mutual friend Mike went over to omnis on grand piano in fact. Like you 20cm spaced, but he would place them at the foot of the piano, about 1m away. Always seemed to work well in a big acoustic, like a large church.

Interesting - but there are more ways to record a piano that recordists doing it.

My own thinking tends to be along the lines of - where would the audience be sitting when they hear this being played? I then place the mics in that general direction.

But the piano and the room will affect the sound, so I would move the mics until I get the best sound.

Though I *do* listen with my ears first and would put the mics first in the place where it sounded best to my ears.

Though the Satie I recorded for John Lenehan and now in the Classic FM "Full Works" series I put the mics very close (which is what the producer wanted) and it's a very intimate sound and sounds very natural when played back on loudspeakers in a room. And it's still the very best Satie I have heard - not because it was my recording, but because of the wonderful heart-felt playing of the performer.

[Exalted Wombat]

My own thinking tends to be along the lines of - where would the audience be sitting when they hear this being played? I then place the mics in that general direction.

A very reasonable philosophy. Particularly for binaural listening - which is rapidly becoming the norm for many consumers.

But sometimes we can do BETTER than a 'best seat in the house' recording. Maybe more than sometimes?

[Tim Gillett]

...My own thinking tends to be along the lines of - where would the audience be sitting when they hear this being played? I then place the mics in that general direction.

But the piano and the room will affect the sound, so I would move the mics until I get the best sound...

The sound varies enormously depending on where people sit. So we end up making subjective judgement s at time of performance as to which is the best balance between direct and reflected. I'd much prefer to defer such an important choice till post. Not only can I assess it more leisurely but so can others including the performer. Its easy these days to record the instrument fairly isolated and record the venue and audience response on separate tracks. Pro's do it for maximum flexibility. I see their point.

[Arpangel]

I know that results speak for themselves, and John is one of the best when it comes to recording piano. But I'm not sure about this approach of put the mic where it sounds best to our ears. In some situations this may work, but I think sometimes we have to consider making a sound that translates well through various playback systems, we have to make "recordings" and these aernt in the context of listening in a hall at a live performance, in recordings things may have to be enhanced, or spotlighted to come across realistically.

[John Willett]

My approach works well for me when recording a solo piano recital - which is what I do most. (and the question asked by the OP).

With more complex music and a less than perfect acoustic, other methods may be preferable.

But I *did* say that placing mics where it sound best to my ears is what I do first - I would alter that if listening proves it's needed.

But I do like the minimalist approach (yes, I know that's unusual for someone who sells microphones ) but the more microphones you use the more multi-path distortion you get.

[Arpangel]

My approach works well for me when recording a solo piano recital - which is what I do most. (and the question asked by the OP).

With more complex music and a less than perfect acoustic, other methods may be preferable.

But I *did* say that placing mics where it sound best to my ears is what I do first - I would alter that if listening proves it's needed.

But I do like the minimalist approach (yes, I know that's unusual for someone who sells microphones ) but the more microphones you use the more multi-path distortion you get.

I have to take my hat off to you John, regarding your piano recordings, anyone that can record a good piano sound is a hero AFAIC.
I've never got a piano sound that I've been happy with, there's always something glaringly wrong. I've got the gear, good mic's etc, but it's always awful.
Now I just use the piano sound in Reason if I need a piano for my own music, it's simpler and less hassle.
I always tend to get unwanted resonances on my piano recordings, major humps in the frequency range, or the dynamics are all over the place, then you have to get into compression, sometimes I think I'd be better off not using mic's at all, it's one of those things that you've either got it, or you haven't, and I definitely haven't.
.

[Drew Stephenson]

I've tried recording live piano a couple of times and given up. In order to get a real enough sound i had to move the mics quite a way back, at which point I got too much room, and not good room. VST was far easier and, in a busy mix, i'm pretty sure no-one noticed, or cared.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I've never got a piano sound that I've been happy with, there's always something glaringly wrong. I've got the gear, good mic's etc, but it's always awful.

It's really not the gear... Having a superbly well set up piano in a great sounding space with a very skilled player all have quite a lot to do with it...

H

[John Willett]

I've never got a piano sound that I've been happy with, there's always something glaringly wrong. I've got the gear, good mic's etc, but it's always awful.

It's really not the gear... Having a superbly well set up piano in a great sounding space with a very skilled player all have quite a lot to do with it...

H

Absolutely

And then allowing the pianist to PERFORM - to put his/her heart and soul into the performance and to then capture that performance as best you can.

[Arpangel]

I've never got a piano sound that I've been happy with, there's always something glaringly wrong. I've got the gear, good mic's etc, but it's always awful.

It's really not the gear... Having a superbly well set up piano in a great sounding space with a very skilled player all have quite a lot to do with it...

H

I think all the boxes you mentioned there Hugh are ticked.
The only one that isn't is a skilled engineer....

[Rob Kirkwood]

Though the Satie I recorded for John Lenehan and now in the Classic FM "Full Works" series I put the mics very close (which is what the producer wanted) and it's a very intimate sound and sounds very natural when played back on loudspeakers in a room. And it's still the very best Satie I have heard - not because it was my recording, but because of the wonderful heart-felt playing of the performer.

I'm nobody important, & It's a very long time since I recorded anything acoustic, so there's no point me even trying to comment on mics or placement, etc.. However I agree entirely that a true quality recording begins with the performer.

Back in 2000 I had the privilege of working for/with John Lenehan for 6 months - & I have to say that John is a fantastically gifted musician, but also incredibly humble & generous with his time & patience. That John was happy for me (essentially a pretty average guitarist who can't read music) to stumble my way through some stuff on his personal Steinway Grand speaks volumes about him, & I'm very grateful for the encouragement he gave me to further develop my own playing. I also appreciated the opportunity to be around when he swapped his old grand piano (a Kawai) for the Steinway - before then I'd never really appreciated the difference between a pretty good instrument & a really exceptional one.

Back then, John could sit down & play a classical piece on the grand piano that would make you cry, but equally could then sit down at his Yamaha Clavinova with a fully loaded JV2080 & Emu Proteus & produce a multitracked piece that would leave you in awe. I suspect if you sit him down in front of a Fisher Price My First Piano, he'd still come up with something beautiful! He's one of the few people I've met who can produce a truly moving performance from a score, but equally, when required, can busk & improvise in pretty much any style you'd ask from a completely blank sheet of paper. It was a pleasure & privilege for our paths to cross.

Sorry, derailed the thread a bit there, but I couldn't leave the mention of John's playing without adding something. If you're unfamiliar with John, do a search & have a look/listen!

Rob

[Arpangel]

I'm not an engineer, as such, I know "a bit about stuff" out of necessity to make recordings of my own music. That's how it's always been.
Regarding piano, I have a rough idea about the sound I'd like, and it varies from peice to piece, but most of the time I don't get the sound I'm after. It's OK "it'll do" kind of thing, but it's not ideal.
But then again, my reference points aren't anywhere reasonable, this is other peoples music, recorded with different equipment, different instruments, in different rooms, so expecting my piano in my domestic living room to sound anywhere near those recordings is totally unreasonable. So I just make my own sounds now, and don't even think about it.
I have one SM57 plugged into a cassette protastudio, for the more rough and ready stuff, and a couple of high quality SDC's for when I want a more intimate cleaner sound.
My reference recordings for piano are early Deutsche Gramophon from the 60's, anything on the ECM label, a lot of the Brian Eno Daniel Lanois stuff recorded at Grant Avenue Studio, and Tom Waits. These are always a guide, depending on the mood of the piece I'm doing, but as usual, it's always a strange mixture of what I'd like and what I actually achieve.

[John Willett]

Sorry, derailed the thread a bit there, but I couldn't leave the mention of John's playing without adding something. If you're unfamiliar with John, do a search & have a look/listen!

Agreed - if you ever get your hands on John's "Satie" in Classic FM 's Full Works series - listen to track 25 - that's my favourite (the whole CD is superb, though).

It's HERE on Amazon UK - must be getting rare now as the price is high for a new one. But the fact that the price is high shows that it's an excellent recording that's still in demand.

[Arpangel]

Sorry, derailed the thread a bit there, but I couldn't leave the mention of John's playing without adding something. If you're unfamiliar with John, do a search & have a look/listen!

Agreed - if you ever get your hands on John's "Satie" in Classic FM 's Full Works series - listen to track 25 - that's my favourite (the whole CD is superb, though).

It's HERE on Amazon UK - must be getting rare now as the price is high for a new one. But the fact that the price is high shows that it's an excellent recording that's still in demand.

£52.72

Is it delivered to my door by two lovely people (men/women I'll leave the reader to choose, don't want to appear sexist) in a Rolls Royce Phantom who will carefully place it in my CD player for me?
I'm sure it's worth it John, but that would be the most expensive CD I've ever bought!

:

[Hugh Robjohns]

I found a new one on Amazon for a slightly more acceptable twenty quid:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Satie-Piano-Miniatures-including-Gymnopedies/dp/B00002684E/ref=tmm_acd_title_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1573637992&sr=1-2-catcorr

...and there are used ones from £3 upwards...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/B00002684E/ref=tmm_acd_used_olp_sr?ie=UTF8&condition=used&qid=1573637992&sr=1-2-catcorr

It is wonderfully serene music, played beautifully.... and the recording's not bad I suppose...

H