Is TV/ video/ film sound getting worse?

[Wonks]

Yes, thank you. Much appreciated.

[Martin Walker]

Indeed - a real insight into the nitty gritty of quality audio recording to suit a particular scenario.

Thanks Jake!

Martin

[Dan LB]

Thanks for the info Jake, very interesting.

What equipment is used to provide FOH sound for the audience?

[Jake Knott]

Thanks for the info Jake, very interesting.

What equipment is used to provide FOH sound for the audience?

We've got 3 Nexo PS10 speakers slung on trussing above the front corners and centre. They're nicely directional, and don't have an extended bottom end response, which is just what you need for TV speech. No subs; there's only a small amount of music in each show and it's never at concert volumes. They're at least 25 years old and currently showing no signs of breaking down. The audience mics then sit in between them, 2 front and 2 rear, and their group fader is worked very heavily to control PA colouration.

The teams each have a K-Array Anakonda speaker hidden in their desks, and Jeremy has a small active Fostex speaker by his chair, although he hears the teams mostly through his earpiece.

Teams and presenter hear a "mix-minus" of speech with everyone but themselves in it, which are all sent from post-fader channel auxes. This and the hard mixing style keep any spill under control.

[Dan LB]

We've got 3 Nexo PS10 speakers slung on trussing above the front corners and centre. They're nicely directional, and don't have an extended bottom end response, which is just what you need for TV speech. No subs; there's only a small amount of music in each show and it's never at concert volumes. They're at least 25 years old and currently showing no signs of breaking down. The audience mics then sit in between them, 2 front and 2 rear, and their group fader is worked very heavily to control PA colouration.

Thanks for the detail Jake.

Coincidentally, we are looking at replacing our current PA system in our main studio with Nexo PS10s also. The current system was installed sometime in the late 80s/early 90s and is comprised of 8 EV SX300s powered by Crown Macrotech amps. Each speaker is hanging from the studio grid on its own lighting ‘scope.
It seems crazy to me to be driving these ancient budget speakers from a beautiful new Digico SD5 but it’s what we’ve got for the moment. The audience for most shows in that studio is 200 people but the configuration changes from show to show so we need to be able to reposition speakers to suit the production.

Do you do the FOH mix for from the broadcast desk or is there a dedicated FOH console?

[ef37a]

I have not entered the debate so far but last night I watched the first Dirty Harry film. I have a modest, mainly home built 5.1 system (but no rear speakers at the mo) and I was struck by the high quality of the music and the crisp dialogue.

So yes, much modern sound production is poor to dreadful IMHO and I agree that a large part of that is due to the lack of consideration of the rubbish speakers in FSTVs but even in my quite decent system 'FX' music often drowns out speech and is often totally unrelated to the picture and unecessary.

The picture quality was also excellent and even in the night scenes they lit the action where it was needed so you could follow it.

Contrast that with the recent production of War of the Worlds. I know it was SUPPOSED to be soul destroying but the lack of light became such a strain I gave up in the end. I will confess I found the plot line hard to follow. Maybe I should read the book?

Dave.

[Jake Knott]

Do you do the FOH mix for from the broadcast desk or is there a dedicated FOH console?

It's all fed from a post-fader aux on the broadcast desk. The actual mix to FOH is more or less the broadcast mix minus the audience mics, with odd tweaks depending on the studio geography; for example the VO is slightly lower because he's virtually in the audience. I set it up all by ear with feedback from the floor crew, then it's saved and recalled each time we come back.

[Dan LB]

Do you do the FOH mix for from the broadcast desk or is there a dedicated FOH console?

It's all fed from a post-fader aux on the broadcast desk. The actual mix to FOH is more or less the broadcast mix minus the audience mics, with odd tweaks depending on the studio geography; for example the VO is slightly lower because he's virtually in the audience. I set it up all by ear with feedback from the floor crew, then it's saved and recalled each time we come back.

Thanks again for the insight Jake, very helpful

Dan

[Hugh Robjohns]

Contrast that with the recent production of War of the Worlds. I know it was SUPPOSED to be soul destroying but the lack of light became such a strain I gave up in the end.

This is another common problem. The gamma curve of Plasma TVs screens is quite different to that of LCD TVs. Plasma screens can cope very well with low-light images -- you can still see detail in the dark bits. But LCD screens tend to just go black and all detail is lost.

Needless to say, with the increased sensitivity of modern cameras, it is genuinely possible to light a scene with single candles these days and, as most productions are shot, edited and viewed using expensive plasma screens (moving to OLEDs now), or projected in low-light viewing theatres, it all looks great and 'moody'. Meanwhile, viewers at home with the £50 LCD sets from Tescos (which they're viewing from well off-axis) can't see half of what's going on!

H

[Sam Spoons]

Contrast that with the recent production of War of the Worlds. I know it was SUPPOSED to be soul destroying but the lack of light became such a strain I gave up in the end. I will confess I found the plot line hard to follow. Maybe I should read the book?

Dave.

Naw, don't bother just listen to the Jeff Wayne version......

[Rich Hanson]

Contrast that with the recent production of War of the Worlds. I know it was SUPPOSED to be soul destroying but the lack of light became such a strain I gave up in the end. I will confess I found the plot line hard to follow. Maybe I should read the book?

Dave.

Naw, don't bother just listen to the Jeff Wayne version......

Indeed. Although it deviates from it, the musical version is still much closer to the book than the TV version.

There's also an audio book on Audible, based on the original musical version, but with much more of the original story (although again, it's still not totally faithful to the book).

[ef37a]

". Meanwhile, viewers at home with the £50 LCD sets from Tescos (which they're viewing from well off-axis) can't see half of what's going on! "

Scuse ME Hugh! My 42" PCWorld JVC Smart(ish) TV was the thick end of £400!
Maybe I should just turn the light off but then I shall go A over T when I have to go for a P!

Dave.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Scuse ME Hugh! My 42" PCWorld JVC Smart(ish) TV was the thick end of £400!

The point I was making is that the gamma curve of LCD sets -- no matter their price -- is very different to that of Plasma (and OLED). The latter closely match the typical camera gamma which allows far more detail 'in the blacks', whereas the LCD sets don't. It's just the way the technology is...

So the programme makers use high quality camera technology which favours high-end viewing equipment, while the average viewer favours much cheaper viewing technology which is inherently compromised.

I wonder if there's a parallel here between the way vinyl records are cut and replayed? It's done right at the professional source, and bodged at the consumer end.

H

[ef37a]

Scuse ME Hugh! My 42" PCWorld JVC Smart(ish) TV was the thick end of £400!

The point I was making is that the gamma curve of LCD sets -- no matter their price -- is very different to that of Plasma (and OLED). The latter closely match the typical camera gamma which allows far more detail 'in the blacks', whereas the LCD sets don't. It's just the way the technology is...

So the programme makers use high quality camera technology which favours high-end viewing equipment, while the average viewer favours much cheaper viewing technology which is inherently compromised.

I wonder if there's a parallel here between the way vinyl records are cut and replayed? It's done right at the professional source, and bodged at the consumer end.

H

Been many decades since I did C&G Colour Television but isn't 'gamma' just the linearity of the video amplifiers? (and Col diff amps when I did it!)
If so, cannot that be made tweakable in the TV's software? My set has "Natural, Dynamic, Cinema and Sport" are they related to gamma at all?

Dave.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Me too... and I'm a soundie not a video guy, so I'm getting out of my depth here... all I can say is that I've sat through a lot of tech talks about the differences between different types of TV for use in TV galleries etc (while waiting to talk about surround sound, usually). The above is the received wisdom I picked up...

[MOF]

I wonder if there's a parallel here between the way vinyl records are cut and replayed? It's done right at the professional source, and bodged at the consumer end.

H

Or better still, listen on CD, even closer to what was on the master tape.

[Arpangel]

I wonder if there's a parallel here between the way vinyl records are cut and replayed? It's done right at the professional source, and bodged at the consumer end.

H

Or better still, listen on CD, even closer to what was on the master tape.

I think the reason why CD was so successful, is because you can't really have a badly set-up CDplayer, but you can have a terribly set up turntable, or one so bad it will damage your records, neither of these things were applicable to CD. In the case of CD it was the benefits outweigh the disadvantages.

[ef37a]

I wonder if there's a parallel here between the way vinyl records are cut and replayed? It's done right at the professional source, and bodged at the consumer end.

H

Or better still, listen on CD, even closer to what was on the master tape.

I think the reason why CD was so successful, is because you can't really have a badly set-up CDplayer, but you can have a terribly set up turntable, or one so bad it will damage your records, neither of these things were applicable to CD. In the case of CD it was the benefits outweigh the disadvantages.

IMHO any recording medium which is frequency/level sensitive to a high degree cannot produce the ultimate in fidelity.

Tape was bad enough but massively better than vinyl! Surely the balance of the final product was in the gift of the cutting engineer and different ones would have had different ideas of what was 'right'?

Yes, playback systems were deadful in the vast majority of cases. Perhaps the ultimate in grot was the BSR TCA-H cartridge tracking at 10g and producing around 10V (yes, volts!) rms to drive a single UL84 pentode. NFB? You are having a giraffe!

But.Oh how the kids loved them!

Dave.

[Brian M Rose]

There is a remarkable similarity between TV displays and speakers.
Monitors are designed to be accurate - 'speakers' are often designed to sound 'exciting' and it's the same with TVs when you see them in the shop. There is generally a 'shop' setting which is vastly inaccurate, over saturated, bearing no resemblance to either reality or the original programme material.
I recently bought a Panasonic OLED TV. Now I'm very fortunate to have a friend who is one of the main consultants to both the BBC and EBU when it comes to camera technology; it was actually he who recommended the Pana.
We spent a morning setting up, using standard test patterns as well as his own and in the end he agreed, 'I'm happy with that,' Now the setting was vastly different on HDTV at least, to the native, out-of-the-box setting.
At least the Pana does allow you to go VERY deep into the Menu (for example it includes REC709). So yes, for a £1.6K TV it is very good indeed; not a Master Monitor, (Sony's original 24" display cost about £25K!) but certainly good enough as a client sign-off display in post production.
The only down side is that the built in speakers are more than useless - but that's another story.

[MOF]

I think the reason why CD was so successful, is because you can't really have a badly set-up CDplayer, but you can have a terribly set up turntable, or one so bad it will damage your records, neither of these things were applicable to CD. In the case of CD it was the benefits outweigh the disadvantages.

It's more than that, the frequency response and dynamic range are so much better on CD. Vinyl goes through at least four generations (acetate to factory stampers) and they all degrade over time.
Tracking distortion and bass/loudness restrictions as you go further into the centre of the vinyl, then there's the physical vinyl roar and clicks and scratches.
The only good thing in my view about the vinyl revival is the cover artwork and the smell.
The early CDs did have issues of being cut from RIAA equalised tapes instead of the studio masters and early digital mastering console faders weren't very good, but oversampling has sorted out the latter and I don't think anyone uses production master tapes now as the record companies have, where possible, realised the value in quality remastering from studio masters.
A lot of people seem to like vinyl, but I think that's because of it's limitations/distortions, but that's what we're talking about, it's got a sound of its own. CDs have much greater fidelity.

[Hugh Robjohns]

I love the ritual of playing vinyl. I love the ability to tinker with the turntable -- tracking and skating weights, VTA, etc -- and the necessity to clean and handle discs with great care and precision. I like being able to read and enjoy the sleeve notes without reading glasses.

But while I enjoy and appreciate the sound for its nostalgic character, I know it's far from accurate and it has very obvious technical flaws and failings.

Now.... 15ips quarter inch tape... That's a proper format...

[James Perrett]

The early CDs did have issues of being cut from RIAA equalised tapes instead of the studio masters and early digital mastering console faders weren't very good, but oversampling has sorted out the latter and I don't think anyone uses production master tapes now as the record companies have, where possible, realised the value in quality remastering from studio masters.

I think that's a bit of a myth in most cases as production master tapes normally include all the mastering processing but not RIAA eq. Sometimes they'd be flat but include instructions about the eq required for the cutting engineer - this would have been the case for large record companies who had cutting rooms all over the world with similar gear in them. So yes, you may be hearing masters that were intended to sound good when cut to vinyl and may have had the frequency extremes removed but that was probably what most of the other formats (like cassette and 8 track) were made from too. I'd have to say that I did hear a Heaven 17 CD that sounded like it had RIAA eq on it but that was the only one I've ever encountered.

[Eddy Deegan]

I love CDs and records. CDs in particular represent to me a great balance between fidelity and convenience. Not to mention the fact that some of them at least have half decent artwork and inserts.

Also, when (the only question in my mind is how long before) the sun throws a wobbly and whomps the Earth with a massive EMP due to a solar flare or something like it, CDs and records (as far as I know) will survive it, and although there may be no players working to use them they should be recreated relatively soon after, and the information won't be lost.

In the event, while the world adjusts to a period without working electronics of any kind on the consumer front, and assuming it happens in my lifetime, you'll find me at the nearest piano writing my next album in readiness. Probably powered by schadenfreude given the angst of a couple of billion people exhibiting withdrawal symptoms from the drug that is Facebook

[MOF]

I think that's a bit of a myth in most cases as production master tapes normally include all the mastering processing but not RIAA eq

It’s a long time ago now but I seem to remember reading (in Studio Sound) about the unseemly rush by some labels to get CDs out resulted in that happening.

[Jammondenon62]

I love CDs and records. CDs in particular represent to me a great balance between fidelity and convenience. Not to mention the fact that some of them at least have half decent artwork and inserts.

Also, when (the only question in my mind is how long before) the sun throws a wobbly and whomps the Earth with a massive EMP due to a solar flare or something like it, CDs and records (as far as I know) will survive it, and although there may be no players working to use them they should be recreated relatively soon after, and the information won't be lost.

In the event, while the world adjusts to a period without working electronics of any kind on the consumer front, and assuming it happens in my lifetime, you'll find me at the nearest piano writing my next album in readiness. Probably powered by schadenfreude given the angst of a couple of billion people exhibiting withdrawal symptoms from the drug that is Facebook ;)

.........I have to say that this example of future events possible are very possible and possibly you may be one of a few that will have a No.#1 Hit (new) for quite a spell....... and, yes, I know of many that will be facing the dreaded Facebook withdrawal that will be a sight to behold when all they can do is try to remember the last post they read and IF they left a "like" on it, LOL! We can be assured that old "Facey" will be back online just as soon as someone even creates a simple static spark! I wouldn't want our "friends" to feel insecure or unfriended in any way, right? As you may be able to tell......I am NOT a spokesperson for the conglomerate called "Facebook", but really like my shellac 78's and piles of 33 and a thirds!! Great read, Eddy D.!!