Multi pattern LDC with high output £300?

[dickiefunk]

Hi,

I’m looking to add a few affordable multi pattern LDC’s for both recording and live choirs/classical ensembles. I have a pair of Rode NT55’s but prefer the results I get using LDC’s.
At the moment I’m using three Audio Technica AT4040’s and these work extremely well when I just need cardioid patterns. However, there are occasions where I would like different polar patterns depending on the project.

I’ve had a quick look around and the following options are of particular interest

Rode NT-2a
SE Electronics SE2300
CAD M179
Warm Audio WA-47jr
Lewitt LCT441 flex (slightly over budget)

Ideally I would like something with even higher output and lower self noise.

Has anyone had experience with any of these mics and the Audio Technica AT4040’s?

What would you recommend?

[Hugh Robjohns]

Ideally I would like something with even higher output and lower self noise.

Has anyone had experience with any of these mics and the Audio Technica AT4040’s?

What would you recommend?

I have a pair of AT4040s and quite like them or close or loud sources, but they aren't the quietest LDC on the planet at 12dBA. So not really ideal for distant, quiet sources...

I also have a CAD M179, which has a very similar self-noise (11dBA). It's a good-sounding mic, although I have heard several complaints of long-term reliability issues and one of my own has died. Must get it fixed...

Of the mics you list, my personal preference would be for the Lewitt 441. I have a lot of time for those guys. They really know what they are doing, have a fantastic R&D team, and some very impressive mics. The 441Flex is a very quiet mic at 7dBA, which is more or less as good as it gets for a typical 1-inch LDC. Output level is only 3dB lower than the AT4040, so you'd barely notice the difference.

I've not used either the sE or WA mics, so I can't really comment on their sound quality. The sE2300 has been reviewed in SOS, but I don't think the WA mic has.

The sE has a similar sensitivity to the AT and a self noise of 9dBA, so 3dB quieter. The WA mic also has a self-noise of 9dBA, but the sensitivity is 8dB lower than the AT4040.

Finally, the Rode is as quiet as the Lewitt at 7dBA, and the sensitivity is 4dB lower than the AT. So based on your requirements I'd say the choice was really between the Lewitt and the Rode...

[dickiefunk]

Thanks Hugh. When you say the sensitivity is lower does this also mean the output is lower?

[ef37a]

I understand the desire for very low self noise but why the requirement fo high output?

Most modern AIs are quiet enough for dynamics for close'ish work and it is a weak sister LDC that does not beat those by 20dB?

Dave.

[dickiefunk]

I’m not just doing close miking. I will be mainly using these for recording vocal ensembles and choirs. I will often be using an A&H QU-PAC for these location recordings and live sound events.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Thanks Hugh. When you say the sensitivity is lower does this also mean the output is lower?

Yes.

And if your desk is lacking sufficient gain, you can also use one of the many 'gain-boosters' --as long as it's a type that passes phantom power, of course -- such as the Triton Fethead Phantom. https://www.tritonaudio.com/fethead-phantom.html

H

[dickiefunk]

Ah ok. So the Warm WA47jr would require the least amount of gain?

[Hugh Robjohns]

Ah ok. So the Warm WA47jr would require the least amount of gain?

No, the reverse! None of your shortlist mics are as sensitive as the AT mic -- they will all need more gain, ranging from 0.5 to 8dB more.

The WA mic has a sensitivity of 10mV/Pa whereas the AT4040 is 25mV/Pa.

The Rode NT2a is 16mV/Pa, as is the CAD M179. The Lewitt is 17mV/Pa while the sE2300 is 24mV/Pa.

So taking the AT4040 as your reference for gain, and rounding the numbers off, the sE2300 would need 0.5dB more, the Lewitt would need 3.5dB more, the Rode and CAD 4dB more, and the WA 8dB more gain.

H

[dickiefunk]

Ah thanks for explaining that. To be honest the only hiss I get is when I crank the gain on the preamps of the QU-PAC.

[Hugh Robjohns]

In that case a phantom-passing gain booster might well be all you need.

H

[ef37a]

Ah thanks for explaining that. To be honest the only hiss I get is when I crank the gain on the preamps of the QU-PAC.

Ah. Gotcha!

Dave.

[Aled Hughes]

AT4050 worth considering seeing you like the 4040?

[Wonks]

If a £350 Lewitt 441 is a bit over budget, then a £550 AT4050 is certainly well over budget (remember this is for x3 mics).

[DC-Choppah]

https://www.astonmics.com/EN/product/Mics/Spirit

This is a nice multipattern mic that might fit your bill.

I wanted something similar to your specs and compared a bunch of stuff and settled on this guy. No regrets.

The multi patterns are crisp.

The mic picks up everything nicely.

Built like a tank.

Crystal clear sound. Works great in a mix.

I just wish I had another for stereo. Maybe?

[Aled Hughes]

If a £350 Lewitt 441 is a bit over budget, then a £550 AT4050 is certainly well over budget (remember this is for x3 mics).

Ah, silly me.

FWIW I got mine used for around £250.

[dickiefunk]

In that case a phantom-passing gain booster might well be all you need.

H

I’ve got a pair of the Triton Fethead Phantom which I’ve tried but haven’t noticed any reduction in hiss when matching the output?

[ef37a]

In that case a phantom-passing gain booster might well be all you need.

H

I’ve got a pair of the Triton Fethead Phantom which I’ve tried but haven’t noticed any reduction in hiss when matching the output?

You have got this old bloke confused again!

What is your MO for comparing noise levels? The Fetheads give 18dB of gain iirc? So, are you saying when the Fethead is in circuit AND you reduce the peramp gain to match the straight through gain there is no reduction in hiss?

Dave.

[Zukan]

Anyone here tried the matched pair (LCT 040) from Lewitt?

[dickiefunk]

In that case a phantom-passing gain booster might well be all you need.

H

I’ve got a pair of the Triton Fethead Phantom which I’ve tried but haven’t noticed any reduction in hiss when matching the output?

So, are you saying when the Fethead is in circuit AND you reduce the peramp gain to match the straight through gain there is no reduction in hiss?

Dave.

Yes that's correct

[ef37a]

In that case a phantom-passing gain booster might well be all you need.

H

I’ve got a pair of the Triton Fethead Phantom which I’ve tried but haven’t noticed any reduction in hiss when matching the output?

So, are you saying when the Fethead is in circuit AND you reduce the peramp gain to match the straight through gain there is no reduction in hiss?

Dave.

Yes that's correct

Weird!

Dave.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Weird!

Not really... it just means most of the noise is coming from the mic or the ambient acoustic sound, rather than the preamp itself.

H

[ef37a]

Weird!

Not really... it just means most of the noise is coming from the mic or the ambient acoustic sound, rather than the preamp itself.

H

But that is 'pre pre'. If he reduces the pre amp gain (by ~18dB) why does that not decrease?

Dave.

[Hugh Robjohns]

There's the same gain overall from mic to speaker... more from the fethead, less from the interface pre.

H

[ef37a]

There's the same gain overall from mic to speaker... more from the fethead, less from the interface pre.

H

Nope, head is still not round this. I see a 'chain': mic>Fethead> pre> DAW meters. If the noise (total) is coming from the mic and you 'link out' the Fethead the noise must drop by ~ 18dB. If it doesn't then the noise is in the pre amp?

In other words, if the Fethead does not improve the overall signal to noise ratio, what good is it doing there?

Dave.

[Wonks]

Let's say Mic pre on its own provides 60dB gain to get the necessary signal level. Putting the Fethead in the line adds 27dB gain, so Mic pre only need to provide 33dB gain to get the same end signal level.

End result is the same noise level, so the noise produced by the mic-pre and the Fethead are insignificant compared to the noise from the mic (plus background noise picked up by the mic).

If the mic pre was itself notably noisy at 60dB gain (compared to the mic & background noise), then the Fethead would improve matters, but in this case it doesn't.