Neumann KH310a or KH120a with 805 sub?

[jodaki]

Firstly apologies if this has been discussed elsewhere. My searches haven't turned this question up so...

I have/will have a medium-sized well treated good room and want/need some good monitors.

My shortlist is the KH310 or KH120 plusd an 805 sub

Ive read elsewhere someone saying that the KH120a with the 805 sub is a better option than the KH310a.

Any thoughts about which will give me the better monitoring system? thanks, John

[CS70]

Firstly apologies if this has been discussed elsewhere. My searches haven't turned this question up so...

I have/will have a medium-sized well treated good room and want/need some good monitors.

My shortlist is the KH310 or KH120 plusd an 805 sub

Ive read elsewhere someone saying that the KH120a with the 805 sub is a better option than the KH310a.

Any thoughts about which will give me the better monitoring system? thanks, John

Without having tried the combos, I guess that by definition with the 120s + 805 have a subwoofer so you can go lower than with the 310s alone?

Whether that's better or not depends largely on what you do with them, and obviously your environment - if you have a room that can handle bass down to 18hz..

[Hugh Robjohns]

Ive read elsewhere someone saying that the KH120a with the 805 sub is a better option than the KH310a.

They are alternative options, with very different sets of benefits and disadvantages. Either would be very good... I'd say the choice depended on your requirements and priorities.

Personally, I love my KH310s and don't feel the need for a sub. Moreover, I know that getting a sub to work properly in my room would be nigh-on impossible. But then, I don't listen at silly levels and I don't need to have my internal organs rearranged while I'm mixing. Your requirements might be different.

Having a sub handle pretty much all of the low end (which would be the case with KH120s) does give you more options for placement to appease the room mode Gods... With the 310s you have to find a compromise between stereo imaging and room mode excitation, which is more fiddly.

But that mid-range driver on the 310s really does help with hearing deep into the mix, and the closed box aspect maintains time-domain precision.

Swings and roundabouts...

And just to muddy the waters a little more, if you're persuaded to go down the subwoofer route, you might want to try out the KH80s instead of the KH120s. I would!

And finally: make sure you know how big the KH805 is before you buy. The website and brochure pictures make it look like a neat little cube, but it's actually pretty big (360 x 330 x 645 mm or 14 x 13 x 25 inches).

[jodaki]

Personally, I love my KH310s and don't feel the need for a sub.

Yes, this seems to be the more popular opinion. My KLH310s are on their way as we 'speak'.
Thanks Hugh, great information as always.

Finally do you mind if I ask one more thing? I have a scarlett 18i20 (but use my focusrite 2 CH and 8 CH A/D converters for conversion when recording) - so while Im on the project of improving my monitoring with the KH310s - do you think Id benefit much from upgrading my D/A? Ive looked at a few options (in particular the Crane Song Solaris and RME ADI-2 pro) but have noticed the Dangerous D-box+ which I think they have upgraded to fix all the niggles you noted in your review of the original d-box. I thought it could be a good combo DAC/monitor controller. If not then I'll stick with my scarlett for now. thanks, John

[Hugh Robjohns]

I like shiny new toys as much as the next man (and more than some!) and the RME ADI or Dangerous boxes are nice converters with useful functionality... but actually, the Focusrite converters are very good and unless your room is exceptionally well sorted I doubt you'd really benefit from the upgrade in any practical sense.

So what I'd recommend is that you live with and get used to the new monitors for a while first, and then if you feel you can hear any limitations with your current converters, consider trying out something more high-end.

I suspect that you'll find your new monitors let you hear all sorts of issues with your existing recordings and other elements of your recording chain. The converters in the Focusrite interfaces definitely won't be the weakest link!

H

[dickiefunk]

I’ve been reading this thread and am considering upgrading my current setup.
At the moment I’m using the KH120’s with an Eve TS108 sub and this is very working well. However, I’ve been offered a good deal on the KH310’s but the seller isn’t local so I can’t try them first.
I’ve read a couple of people say the KH310’s need a bigger room to focus the stereo imaging? I’m not sure this is true though? Also, I sometimes like to mute the Eve sub for certain mixing tasks.
I take my KH120’s out to some of my location recording jobs so the small size really helps. Also, the Eve sub has some very useful features like being able to fully control all the parameters via remote control.
I think ideally I would love a DSP version of the KH120’s but have no idea if Neumann have any plans for this? I’ve also considered adding a second sub as I’ve read this helps with node averaging but again don’t know if this is true?

Not sure if I would be better to stick with my current setup?

[Nazard]

you might want to try out the KH80s i

As a KH80 user, I heartedly endorse them, and without a sub. And the DSP is exceptionally well implemented - genius!

And as a classical organist, I have had plenty of opportunities for re-arranging mine, and others, internal organs. Nothing beats a 32 foot pedal bombarde: something Olivier Messiaen wanted at the the Église de la Sainte-Trinité , where I heard him play in '70. He never realised his dream, sadly. Messiaen extemporised a five part fugue during communion! (To put it into context, none of the published J S Bach fugues for organ have more than four parts).

Anyway, in 2005, I was at Sainte-Trinité and spoke at length to the lady who was pretty much his manager and she very kindly gave me a lot of material about him. Funnily enough, my organ teacher always said that organists were megalomaniacs. He was right! He also turned the pages for Marcel Dupré, at Saint-Sulpice in '70: I rate Dupré as the greatest ever player. Widor said that the Dupré Prelude and Fugue in G minor was unplayable (Op 7); it is not, but just needs practice...

Anyway, apologies about the red herrings..........

[Hugh Robjohns]

I’ve read a couple of people say the KH310’s need a bigger room to focus the stereo imaging? I’m not sure this is true though?

No, it's not true. I believe the technical term is that they are 'talking utter bollarks'!

If you check the manuals, Neumann specify the minimum listening distance as 0.75m, and the recommended distance 1 to 2.5 metres. For comparison, the equivalent figures for the KH120 are: minimum: 0.75m, and recommended, 1 to 2 metres.

So the KH310 can be used at exactly the same minimum and recommended distances as a KH120 and in the same sized room, if desired... but it can also be used at a greater distance and in a larger room if necessary/appropriate.

This is all entirely obvious, though... if you think about it the tweeter and midrange unit in the KH310 are in a very similar physical arrangement/spacing to a KH120 or KH80... So the minimum and recommended listening distances are bound to be quite similar.

I think ideally I would love a DSP version of the KH120’s but have no idea if Neumann have any plans for this?

I'd be amazed if they didn't, especially given the impressive capabilities of the KH80 ... but I'm afraid I can't offer any wisdom as to when new digital models might be launched... I'd have thought fairly soon... and NAMM is coming up...

I’ve also considered adding a second sub as I’ve read this helps with node averaging but again don’t know if this is true?

Yes, it is sometimes done and it can work if engineered carefully... but to be effective you'd need very accurate control over the time (phase) alignment of the two subs in relation to the main monitors (and each other).

To be blunt, though, I'd still much rather invest in sorting the basic room's LF response out than fill it with yet another trouser-flapper. When you're in a hole, stop digging, as the saying goes!

Not sure if I would be better to stick with my current setup?

It would certainly be the cheaper option... And while the KH310 is a lovely speaker the KH120 is no slouch... If setup properly with a good subwoofer I should imagine the combination would perform to a similar level to the KH310....

[dickiefunk]

Thanks Hugh. That’s confirmed a lot of what I was already thinking.
The plan is to sort out the room acoustics as much as I can first before potentially adding a second sub.
I didn’t think the KH310’s needed to be positioned further from the listening position and need a bigger room to focus the stereo imaging either!

Ideally I think I would prefer a DSP version of the KH120’s if Neumann do release it.
How does the KH80DSP compare to the KH310 in overall clarity and stereo imaging etc?

[Hugh Robjohns]

I didn’t think the KH310’s needed to be positioned further from the listening position and need a bigger room to focus the stereo imaging either!

To be fair, you would usually need a greater listening distance with more typical three-way speakers using vertically aligned drivers. But the KH310 is a very compact design that keeps all three drivers closely spaced, so their outputs integrate quickly.

How does the KH80DSP compare to the KH310 in overall clarity and stereo imaging etc?

Slightly difficult to make a direct comparison as the phase linearity of the KH80 changes the sound presentation quite dramatically. It's for the good, once you're used to it, but it does make A-B comparisons rather confusing and counterproductive.

I'd almost certainly pick the KH80 over the KH120... it would be a tougher call with the 80/310 decision...

[dpete]

"with NAMM coming up"... looks like this new KH750 sub may be Neumann's answer for adding DSP to KH120 and KH310 (and integrating with the 80). Hope SOS can review.

https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-750-dsp

[Hugh Robjohns]

I hope so too... I'd very much look forward to giving that a whizz with my KH310s

[dickiefunk]

I hope so too... I'd very much look forward to giving that a whizz with my KH310s

If I added the KH750DSP to my K120 would this effectively be the same as KH120DSP’s?

[Hugh Robjohns]

I've only skim-read the blurb, but it sounds like the acoustic alignment process built into the sub will correct the impulse (phase) and in-room EQ responses of the satellite speakers, at least through the mid-band. So yes, it will probably go a long way to creating a virtual KH120DSP...

But you could also do that by using one of the other third-party room-correction systems out there (one that includes impulse-response correction, that is).

H

[Zukan]

I’ve been reading this thread and am considering upgrading my current setup.
At the moment I’m using the KH120’s with an Eve TS108 sub and this is very working well. However, I’ve been offered a good deal on the KH310’s but the seller isn’t local so I can’t try them first.
I’ve read a couple of people say the KH310’s need a bigger room to focus the stereo imaging? I’m not sure this is true though? Also, I sometimes like to mute the Eve sub for certain mixing tasks.
I take my KH120’s out to some of my location recording jobs so the small size really helps. Also, the Eve sub has some very useful features like being able to fully control all the parameters via remote control.
I think ideally I would love a DSP version of the KH120’s but have no idea if Neumann have any plans for this? I’ve also considered adding a second sub as I’ve read this helps with node averaging but again don’t know if this is true?

Not sure if I would be better to stick with my current setup?

Dickie, if it's working for you why change?

[Zukan]

Firstly apologies if this has been discussed elsewhere. My searches haven't turned this question up so...

I have/will have a medium-sized well treated good room and want/need some good monitors.

My shortlist is the KH310 or KH120 plusd an 805 sub

Ive read elsewhere someone saying that the KH120a with the 805 sub is a better option than the KH310a.

Any thoughts about which will give me the better monitoring system? thanks, John

John, what type of music are you writing/producing?

[baward]

As the happy owner of some KH80's, a bit like Hugh) don't feel the need for a sub at all. Terrific monitors, highly recommended if your space isn't huge.

[dickiefunk]

I’ve been reading various reviews of the KH80dsp and this makes want a DSP version of the KH120’s even more. However, I’ve been offered a fantastic deal on a pair of KH310’s that are only a few months old. If I knew Neumann will definitely be releasing KH120DSP monitors I would wait and go that route but as there’s no guarantee they will be doing this I am worried I may miss out on a fanatic deal on the KH310’s

Dickie, if it's working for you why change?

Well I’m regularly looking to improve the quality of my studio and room acoustics and monitors are top of my list. I have heard so many great things about the KH310’s saying they are a noticeable step up from the KH120’s and the deal I’ve been offered is a real bargain.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Sounds like its too good a deal to miss, and the 310 really is a crackingly good speaker. I'd say go for it.

[Zukan]

I’ve been reading various reviews of the KH80dsp and this makes want a DSP version of the KH120’s even more. However, I’ve been offered a fantastic deal on a pair of KH310’s that are only a few months old. If I knew Neumann will definitely be releasing KH120DSP monitors I would wait and go that route but as there’s no guarantee they will be doing this I am worried I may miss out on a fanatic deal on the KH310’s

Dickie, if it's working for you why change?

Well I’m regularly looking to improve the quality of my studio and room acoustics and monitors are top of my list. I have heard so many great things about the KH310’s saying they are a noticeable step up from the KH120’s and the deal I’ve been offered is a real bargain.

Then grab it. I would if the opportunity arose. BUT sort your room out or there's no point in getting the 310s.

[dickiefunk]

Hi guys. I haven't bought the KH310's yet as I'm hanging on to see if there is any news regarding DSP versions of the KH120's as this is what I'd really prefer for my setup.
One thing I haven't taken into consideration is the desk I would be mounting the KH310's on. At the moment I have my KH120's mounted on some IsoAcoustics ISO-155 stands which. I was quite surprised how much difference these made to the overall clarity compared to having them directly on the desk. The bass is less boomy and more defined and the mids have also noticeably improved. I'm also Because the KH310's go lower than the KH120's I'm wondering I'm wondering if I would be better off with smaller monitors on my desk even if I'm using IsoAcoustics stands? I've also found that having the sub take care of the lowest frequencies helps with the mid-range on the KH120's.

[Hugh Robjohns]

Mounting any speaker on a decent isolation stand will always bring great improvements compared to just plonking it directly on the desk, for a variety of reasons.

And those IsoAcoustics stands are extremely good and I happily recommend them. You'd need different (or reconfigured) stands for the KH310, though, because of its wider base. It would probably be a little unstable on stands built for the KH120.

But critically, the KH310 is quite a different beast to the KH120. It's a sealed cabinet and a three way design, and they are significant factors.

Yes, it has a greater bass extension... so in most situations you just don't need a subwoofer at all, and thus don't need to be concerned about the matching intricacies of blending a sub with the satellites.

If you really want the flatter mid-band frequency response and tighter impulse characteristic that a notional KH120 DSP would provide, then either buy KH80s now -- there is no practical difference in usability between the KH80 and KH120 when used for nearfield monitoring -- or invest in one of the third-party room correction systems.

Easy peasy...

Personally, I'm a huge fan of the Trinnov Optimiser... because although it's not cheap, it really does do the best possible job!

However, staying in the antiquated world of analogue speakers for a moment, the KH310 provides a noticeable step up from the KH120 in terms of mid-range clarity and resolution, as well as a greater bass extension... There are genuine benefits to separating the bass, mid and treble to their own optimised drivers. And it may well be that these speakers can provide you with whatever it is you're seeking....

Decisions, decisions....

The one thing I can say is that if you can buy the KH310s at a good price, you're unlikely to lose money on them if you decide to move them on and stick with what you have now, or invest in KH80s instead...

[dickiefunk]

Looks like the deal on the KH310’s was too good to be true so it looks like I won’t be getting these.
Think I’ll hang on now to see if Neumann release KH120 DSP’s.

[dickiefunk]

Hi Hugh,

If I added the Neumann KH750 sub to my KH120’s would this add the same latency as just using the KH80DSP monitors?
I currently have an Eve TS108 sub which I really like and have just read that this has DSP built in? Whilst I’m not noticing any latency when using this sub, will the DSP in the TS108 be adding latency like the Neumann KH80DSP (and possibly KH750)?

[Hugh Robjohns]

Anything with DSP will add latency, the more complex the processing (particularly in terms of sorting out the system impulse response) the longer the latency.