Box room problem or benefit?

[Gmonics22]

Hi All,

I'm getting back into music making after a long hiatus as I finally have some space in a new home, and am looking for a little advice on choosing the right room for my hobby studio. I have 2 options, neither of which are ideal but I'm trying to come up with a plan...

Room 1 - 10'x11' rectangle
Room 2 - 7'6"x8'9"(into L-shape with an open storage area
Ceilings are around 9'

I want to use monitors as I've tried mixing for years on headphones and just can't get on with it, too upfront and claustrophobic for me, and I find them very fatiguing on the ears. My music is all electronic, produced in-the-box, using Live. Not bass heavy dance floor fillers, more subtle, detailed stuff, and I don't tend to mix too loud. Even so, with such small, untreated rooms I don't think my existing 8" monitors will be a good idea! I'm looking at a few 5" options but not really after speaker recommendations...

I'm more interested in which room people think would be better. Specifically - would the slightly irregular shape of the smaller room be a help or and hinderance acoustically? I thought the bigger room would be better initially, I'm having doubts and think it might need more treatment.

Any thought's greatly appreciated,

Thanks!

[Sam Spoons]

Gut feeling go for the bigger room, symmetry around the mix position helps stereo imaging, bigger room means more room for effective acoustic treatment and, with the right monitors is likely to be better. But, as I think you are thinking, the L shape part may be something that alters the low frequency nodes that are inevitable in a small room so how big is it?

WRT monitors, I have come very close to buying some Neumann KH120s on several occasions but have pulled back each time 'cos I don't do enough recording/mixing and my present monitors (Kef 104aB's) are actually pretty good.

[Gmonics22]

Floorplan for reference:

https://imgur.com/TRGownY

Thanks for the reply Sam Spoons - yep thinking the same re: symmetry vs room mode problems, this is my dilemma!

I'm not spending big on monitors this time round, as I'm really just a hobbyist so getting perfect translatable mixes isn't essential fortunately - and I accept it ain't gonna happen in these rooms - but want to make the best of what I've got.

[Music Wolf]

Bedroom 3 on your plan - in addition to being the smallest and least symmetrical there's also the added problem of the off centre window position which could limit your layout options.

I'd go for the bigger, more symmetrical, room. It may be almost a cube (11' x 10' x 9') but it's not the smallest space that we hobbyists have to work in.

Rockwool will be your friend

[Drew Stephenson]

A third recommendation for the 10x11 here.
They may still be outside your budget but you can pick up a pair of Neumann KH80s for £700 now...
But you'd probably be better spending less on monitors and allocating a couple of hundred to room treatment.

[Sam Spoons]

Yup, deffo Bedroom #2* and decide how much you can afford to spend on acoustic treatment then double it DIY will save you about 40% over Gik Acoustics panels (they can supply the covering fabric for a very reasonable price). Don't just buy a pack of foam tiles, the more reputable manufacturers products are ok but the budget stuff does very little. Rockwool based panels are significantly more effective.

Is the LH wall a party wall (i.e. is the house semi-detached)? That would be he only potential issue I can see with noise to and from the neighbours possibly being a problem.

https://www.gikacoustics.com

[Wonks]

Bedroom layouts (without having to use the link).

[Music Wolf]

Does the geological fault line running through bedrooms 2 & 3 raise any concerns

Oh, is that my coat?

[Gmonics22]

Does the geological fault line running through bedrooms 2 & 3 raise any concerns

Oh, is that my coat?

Oh no good point, surely that should've been mentioned on the survey?!

Thanks for all the input folks, lots of useful info. I hear you on the treatment front and ideally I'd be going whole-hog, but the bigger room may be needed for something else in the nearish future so will have to weigh things up. Moving in this weekend so will try a few setups in the coming weeks and see how it goes. I'll end up with about 4 sets of speakers in the house from floorstanders to a sub/sat system, plus the car and tv, so at least I'll have plenty to check mixes on!

Cheers all

[Sam Spoons]

Acoustic treatment doesn't preclude using the room for another purpose. Half a dozen broadband absorbers and a couple of corner bass traps will go a long way to making the mix environment very usable and, while they might look like an unusual choice of decor, they don't look out of place in an office or even a bedroom.



My room is, obviously, a dedicated music room/studio but it would easily make a good office or workroom with minimal effort.

[Gmonics22]

The proposed future use is a for my other half to have a space in the house that is exclusively her domain, for activities and with decor dictated entirely by her. I'll already have the lounge and a seperate office full of my toys, so a little sanctuary for her to read, draw and yoga in peace doesn't seem like an unreasonable request

[Drew Stephenson]

We've just taken that approach, definitely a wise course of action if you can do it.

[Gmonics22]

Hello Folks.

Firstly thanks for the advice you've already given, I ended up in the odd shaped room unfortunately which was a bit of a squeeze and had some issues with a bass null around 60hz but I was making it work. Sadly circumstances have now changed and I've had to move into what would otherwise be a dining room so I'm looking for some more advice if you'll indulge me...

Dimensions are 7'3" wide, 10'11" long, 7'5" ceiling. It's completely untreated and bare at the mo, and it has a pretty horrendous resonance around 130hz which basically makes my kicks sound like they're running through a very intense short delay & metallic reverb!

I'm hoping some bass traps in the corners and panels on the walls will help, but don't really know where to start and don't want to shell out on heaps of stuff to get no results.

Any thoughts really greatly appreciated!

Cheers

[Sam Spoons]

Start off by hanging some duvets off mic stands at the mirror points (you'll struggle to do the ceiling that way though) and see how much the sound improves (and it will improve.....) then have a look at my previous post.

[Gmonics22]

Thanks again Sam I've only the duvet I sleep with and no mic stands unfortunately, but overnight I've pretty much settled on making some treatment.

By my calcs I can make 12 panels , 2ft x 4ft using 100mm Rockwool for not much money. I'm flexible on placement but thinking best use would be 2 of them to cover floor to ceiling across each corner and then experiment with the other 4. Only restriction is really the ceiling as it's artexed and I don't want to disturb that asbestos if I can avoid it! Good start?

PS my brain was a bit fuzzed last night... the celings are actually 8'2" and the problem resonance is at 200hz. Assuming the Rockwool is going to be best to deal with that.

Cheers all

[Folderol]

The usual recommendation with artexed ceilings, is to put 9.5mm plasterboard over them - using screws, not nails so pretty much zero disturbance.

[Gmonics22]

Update:

So I managed to source a couple of double duvets, and tried them in various locations held up by a precarious arrangement of dining room chairs, curtain poles, a mop and a broom. I consider this a rite of passage. Placing on the side walls to cover first reflections seemed to be the most effective, massively reducing my 200hz honk. Happy days!

Well, this has created a dilemma. Before last night I'd settled on building 4 panels from 100mm Rockwool, 2 for first reflections 120cm x 80cm, and 2 at 240cm x 40cm to sttaddle the front corners. But I'm now wondering if this would be worth the effort and cost - even though I'm more than happy to do this if the results are much better, not least aesthetically!

My main wondering I'm hoping someone can help with as you've been great so far, is this: Is it possible that the duvets could actually perform better, as although they are nowhere near as dense, the coverage is far greater than I'd get from panels and my understanding is that in small room coverage is especially important.

Appreciate this is a complex science that I'm barely getting to grips with, but any insights really much appreciated!

Cheers

[Sam Spoons]

It is very complex but now you have convinced yourself of the benefits go to it, you can always add additional panels as time and budget allow. Received wisdom is that around ⅓ of the walls and ceiling covered with broad band absorbers (or bass traps) is about optimum, (ideally with another third covered with diffusion but in a small room decent diffusers take up a lot of space*).

* I have less than 1/3rd and no diffusion but my room sounds reasonably well balanced and free from too much dodgy 'small room' ambience. I may get around to posting a brief recording sometime.

[Drew Stephenson]

A lot of it comes down to what you can live with. If you're happy with a couple of duvets being up all the time (or with the putupandtakedown routine), then the performance gain for the cost of a couple of cheap mic stands and duvets is hard to beat.
But...
Corner traps and mineral wool will extend the efficacy of your control in the low end.
So if you don't mind the aesthetics, duvets at mirror points and mineral wool across the corners might give you your best bang for buck.

[Gmonics22]

Update:

So after lots of research I have constructed 2 broadband absorbers. 4' x 4' of 100mm RWA45 in wooden frames, with a breathable cotton covering. Experimented with placing them straddling the front wall corners (no difference) first reflection points (no difference) and back wall (no difference).

Feeling kind of defeated at this point. I wasn't expecting anything near a perfect room, but I have seen literally no improvement whatsoever. The honk is still overpowering everything. And now I have two giant turquoise monoliths mocking me while I cry at my desk, which now smells like a builders merchants. Time to give up or double down and make another 2? A happy accident at Travis Perkins gifted me another 4 slabs of Rockwool, which they don't want back. Little victories...

[Sam Spoons]

I put ten panels into my 4 x 4 m room. It's great for listening/mixing but still not dry enough for recording unless everything is fairly close miked. two 1200mm square panels will have made a difference but you need more, mirror points (there are at least four of those, side walls, back wall and ceiling. And probably behind the monitors. Then you need some additional bass trapping.

Rather than being despondent try recording some playback from the monitor speakers with a mic at the listening position then listen back with headphones so you can hear what improvement they are actually making. You made it work with duvets so you can make it work with 'proper' panels (and bear in mind that a double duvet is more than twice the size of each of your 1200mm2 panels).

[Martin Walker]

I put ten panels into my 4 x 4 m room.

I've got eleven bass traps in my small studio, which made a big difference, but it's still not perfect by any means.

I found vertically straddling the front corners was most effective, then the same for the back corners, and then a ceiling cloud.

Add to that some lighter traps on the early reflection points, and I was mostly there.

Martin

[Sam Spoons]

Yup, that was the point I was trying to make I've just done some slightly more distant miking and have realised that, while my room is pretty good for listening it's not so good for tracking acoustic instruments without additional help.

[Hugh Robjohns]

It's completely untreated and bare at the mo, and it has a pretty horrendous resonance around 130hz which basically makes my kicks sound like they're running through a very intense short delay & metallic reverb!

That description sounds like you have a lot of flutter echoes in the room, which is not entirely surprising if it is completely untreated. But it would be worthwhile also making sure that you don't have something resonating from the vibrations -- other equipment in the room, speaker stands, tables, light fittings, loose rack bolts... it's amazing what can be set off in sympathetic resonance!

I'm hoping some bass traps in the corners and panels on the walls will help, but don't really know where to start and don't want to shell out on heaps of stuff to get no results.

Yes it will help, obviously. I wouldn't worry about bass traps for the moment -- you can add those later if necessary. I'd start with some broadband absorber panels on the side mirror points, and on the front and back walls. Depending on whether the floor is carpeted or a hard surface, you might end up needing something on the ceiling too, but again, that can be added later.

The first step would be to deal with sidewall and front-back reflections to try and kill all those flutter echoes. Typically, I'd aim to cover maybe 25-30% of the bare wall surfaces with absorber panels. Two large panels wont be that effective I'm afraid. Even small rooms would usually need 6-10 panels.... Albeit usually 2x4ft ones rather than 4x4ft monsters.

[CS70]

Update:

So after lots of research I have constructed 2 broadband absorbers. 4' x 4' of 100mm RWA45 in wooden frames, with a breathable cotton covering. Experimented with placing them straddling the front wall corners (no difference) first reflection points (no difference) and back wall (no difference).

Feeling kind of defeated at this point. I wasn't expecting anything near a perfect room, but I have seen literally no improvement whatsoever. The honk is still overpowering everything. And now I have two giant turquoise monoliths mocking me while I cry at my desk, which now smells like a builders merchants. Time to give up or double down and make another 2? A happy accident at Travis Perkins gifted me another 4 slabs of Rockwool, which they don't want back. Little victories...

Flutter echos! I have my home setup in a small extension of the main living room (choose your partner wisely ) and the room originally suffered from them horribly. Still does in the "dining space" proper. If you clap your hand, you can really hear a short metallic echo which is unbearable if you have minimally trained ears (the rest of the gang here, of course, notices nothing and just thing it's the TV which is not that good to listen to ).

Luckily these echos aren't hard to defeat. They are usually quite high frequency so they dissipate quickly with the distance and easy to absorb if you understand where they come from. Duvet have probably failed you because, if your room is anything like mine, the echos occur with reflections between floor and ceiling as much (or more) than walls. You can experiment simply by walking around and clapping your hands - if the timbre of the echo stays pretty much similar, it's likely its main component is due to floor-ceiling, which keep the same distance from you as you walk (as opposite to the side walls, obviously).

In my room, the main issue is flat wooden flooring and a very reflective material that was used to finish the ceiling. Walls are drywall with insulation sandwiched between them and the outer wood shell (it's Norway, it's cold and there's lots of wood so houses are mostly in wood).

At my mixing station, I cured that issue primarily by hanging a large broadband absorber/almost bass trap (sourced from a cine-room shop) on the ceiling, leaving about 15cm of air. Of course broadband panels all around and I have a couple of large cylindrical bass traps behind the speakers.

it's far from perfect but the difference between where I sit and just a meter on the side (in the dining room proper) is like night and day when it comes to dryness. The metallic ringing disappeared entirely (as much as my ageing ears can tell of course ) and what I mix on speakers turns out to be generally fine without much effort (I usually compare at the proper studio and there's little tweaking to do be done, mostly).

In short : try to place one of the traps you've built over your seat (or a bit back).. if you have a couple friends you could ask them to just hold it there for you. Remember - not flush with the ceiling, but with good space between. Hopefully you should see a remarkable improvement.

It will most likely be that you *still* need the duvets (or the panels) on the walls and the back of the speakers. If you use duvets, once again not flush on the wall, but with a good space between them and the wall.

Best of luck!